Chaosforge Forum
DoomRL => Requests For Features => Topic started by: RepoRipper on March 03, 2007, 21:09
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i had an idea for alternate ammo! they wouldnt affect damage (at least not primary damage) but they would have powerful effects! to offset this they are not easily found, AND they are "bigger" than normal: a full slot of them holds less than full slot of normal ammo. okay heres the ones i have come up with. #ps means # per full slot.
10mm AP (Armor Piercing) ammo - 50ps
10mm HE (High Explosive) ammo - 50ps (explosion the same size as the imps fireballs)
HE Shotgun Shells - 25ps (HE Shotgun Shells are a classic form of ammo)
Concussion Rockets - 5ps (no damage, huge knockback, hurts on impact with walls, ndoes not destroy items, but can destroy normal and bloodied walls up to 1 space away from the impact point)
Power Cell - 10ps (the power cell is from the original doom game, its a plasma cell that holds 10 charges each, when used to reload, it powers 10 charges. if there isnt enough room in the clip, u cant reload with these)
10mm AB (Atomic Blossom) ammo - 10ps (the holy grail of AoM, extremely rare, these bullets, when fired, become highly radioactive, causing anything 1 space away from its path to take radiation damage, which is like bleed damage but stronger and cannot be removed by healing. you are immune to the effect as the bullet does not become radioactive until shortly after leaving the barrel!)
note this means some of those much too common rockets are concussion rockets that dont destroy items!
also the 10mm AB is iffy, but its hard to find, and takes up a lot of space, for the clip size. that radiation damage affects the target too, but in that case it is in addition to the normal damage!
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So the Atomic Blossom's damage is sort of like lava damage, only without any safe floor to step on for a given amount of time? And who cares if they could heal it away or not? It's not too often that monsters get a chance to pick up medkits even in the early game, and by the late game most of those who do are prone to death by one or two blasts from your weapon. Also, I thought the acid *was* radioactive. If so, does that mean Hell Barons are immune to the effects of this weapon? If not, how do you explain their being immune to radioactive acid that they are actually stepping in but not radioactivity from a pint-sized bullet that they aren't even being hit by? Also also, the limiting to 10 per stack seems like you've made this ammo type both overpowered and useless at the same time. Scarcity is NOT balance.
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The real problem why special ammo won't make it to the game is that it would severely clutter up the reload interface.
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okay BDR no its not timed, the radiation is powerful but dissipates vry quickly, but flesh absobs it, so its like poision. the damage works like bleed damage, but longer lasting, and doesnt heal itself. when it winds down to 1 damage, the next turn it will dissapear. its called a radioactive "half-life". its not timed, it is just so highly radioactive (the bullet, i mean) that it irradiates anything it passes close to! acid is acid, not toxic waste, its not radioactive. nothings immune to this damage, or even resistant. (can u imagine fighting something immune to the nuke!!!?????) also, the ammo limits it to mostly AoMr, and it ignores armor, since it is hurting the creature from inside. scarcity, nah, they r common enough on later levels, but they are not found very early on, either.
ok Kornel, i forgot to mention that the way the reloader works is this: whatever ammo is in it already (or was in it if its empty), if u have any more of it, it will reload that, if not, it will reload types starting with normal, then AP, HE, AB, and Concussion, if applicable. Power Cells are reloaded last, if they can be loaded. reload command will first ask if u want to change ammo type, then bring up ammo type window to choose from, if there is no room in inv for ammo coming out of gun, it is dropped.
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The way reloading works now: You press r, the gun is reloaded, and you are done. You have two guns or want to do something special with a particular gun, you press Shift+R and your guns are reloaded/you do something special with a particular gun, and you are done.
The way you are suggesting reloading change: You press r, the game asks you if you want to change your ammo, you say no, your gun is reloaded. You want to change ammo, you press r, the game asks you if you want to change ammo, you say yes, you get a screen similar to the equip armor screen, unload gun screen, or use item screen showing the different ammo types, you pick the one you want, your gun is loaded with the new type, and you are done.
Is that accurate? If so, I gotta agree with Kornel; it's a lot simpler the way it works now.
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or the ammo select part could be limited to special reload. or a new button altogether.
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Am I the only one who thinks this is "undoomish"?
Outside the roguelike world, games like System Shock, Deus Ex, Fallout and Jagged Alliance use different ammo types. Shooters Like Doom, Quake, Max Payne, Far Cry don't.
DoomRL is the RL equivalent to a shooter. You don't solve problems (= how to kill an enemy) with different ammo types but with bigger weapons :D
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obviously you have never played turok! it uses a LOT of weapons, with great variety, but some have differennt modes or ammo to fire. and its just as much a shooter as Doom, if more active about methods of solving problems. you DO realize that no pure FPS is any good without puzzling problems involving keys, switches, and methods of reaching areas. thats what doom does. its why u cant jump in Doom. u have to run off a higher ledge. most such FPS's are a little more advanced, in that they feature jumping!
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I did play Turok, and I was not fond of it. I must say that I also liked Max Payne a lot despite it's lack of multiple keys and switches necessary to gaining further access to the rest of the game, and much preferred it's focus on the actual shooting rather than the constant search for 'the key to the next area'.
I think a better example would be System Shock; while I haven't played much of it, I have heard a lot about it and the sequel. There, the focus is on completing various goals that are more involved than simply "find key x, use it to get to key y, then use that to get to key z, which will allow you to get to the exit" type 'puzzles' you might find in earlier FPS's, as well as strategic usage of the given resources to make it possible to survive the various enemies rather than just saying "Whoa, enemy, gotta blow him to shreds!" Then again, neither game really qualifies as a 'pure' FPS; even so I rather think that nowadays people would disagree with you that a good FPS requires that you be searching for keys and switches all the time to progress and that you need a variety of ammo types to make for a varied shooting experience. Now that I think of it, No One Lives Forever does use varied ammo types, but that doesn't mean the game would have suffered if they hadn't been involved, and that is not a 'pure' FPS either as you gain skills during the progress of the game.
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A great idea for Shock II RL but I think it would just overcomplicate things..
Too many cooks features spoil the game...One of DRL's best parts is that it is an ideal coffee break game: Easy to play, hard to win but fun to play at the same time.
Also remember that the game is based off Doom - the classic shooter.
Oh and the backpacks, it's hard enough to keep enough ammo in the way it is.
Its a good idea, but it just wont fit in..
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obviously you have never played turok!
Obviously I have, and I regret every minute of it.
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RepoRipper, DaEezT gave multiple examples of games involving various ammo types per weapon, some of which are shooters - Turok's just another one to the list, so it doesn't really change his point: more possibilities are a good thing, if the game is of a type/style different from that of DoomRL, and I, like him, am not keen on changing that type :)
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okay.... i relent. but look around the newer posts, and somewhere Kornel mentions his prior intentions of making Master Traits, i think its a post for a large number of trait ideas. read his explanation for more. but im thinking how bout this instead of AP rounds: an advanced trait that nullifies one point of enemy armor for all your attacks. useful against the cyberdemon! which is why only 2 levels! but even cooler, what do you think of THIS:
Bomberman (i know, it just seems right to me, maybye cuz i cant think of anything else.) Master Trait
1 level max, requires : 4 SoB; Shottyman; 2 TaN; 2 SoG; 1 DG; 0 Brute; 0 Berserker. (look at kornels idea)
Effect: causes all 10mm ammo to become explosive! blast radius of an imp's fireballs. a respectable but not unbalancing boost to damage (via explosion). the real balancer is that in addition to no melee traits, you cannot use any melee weapon (except unarmed)! bomberman never could hold a knife anyhow, so neither can you!
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Special ammo = overcomplication.
i think its a post for a large number of trait ideas.
There is another topic for new traits ideas.
read his explanation for more. but im thinking how bout this instead of AP rounds: an advanced trait that nullifies one point of enemy armor for all your attacks. useful against the cyberdemon!
This is actually not a bad idea for a trait, but I think it should apply to all weapons and would require SoaB 2 :)
Maybe only 1 level - if it seems to be too powerful.
but even cooler, what do you think of THIS:
Bomberman (i know, it just seems right to me, maybye cuz i cant think of anything else.) Master Trait
1 level max, requires : 4 SoB; Shottyman; 2 TaN; 2 SoG; 1 DG; 0 Brute; 0 Berserker. (look at kornels idea)
Effect: causes all 10mm ammo to become explosive! blast radius of an imp's fireballs. a respectable but not unbalancing boost to damage (via explosion). the real balancer is that in addition to no melee traits, you cannot use any melee weapon (except unarmed)! bomberman never could hold a knife anyhow, so neither can you!
Idea sounds pretty...crap for me. First of all requirements you gave are insane, in ITYTD and NTR you wont even get so many levels (unless you are Blade, or other Uber Cyber Demon General, who wins AoB on level higher than medium) but we could probably make them less. Second 3x3 radius isnt really big, you wont hit many monsters. Third, it just sounds completely undoomish... Doom had some kind of realism in it.
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obviously you have never played turok!
Obviously I have, and I regret every minute of it.
Why does everyone whine about Turok ;> ? You don't like killing dinos?
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as to the anti-armor trait, i never said it applied to only some weapons, and only one level would mean it would help against nothing more than FHCa/Co's, and also demons. only two levels, means ALL attacks you make ignore as much as two armor, if there is any armor to ignore. i think the CyberDemon has 6 armor, so this would nullify a third of his armor. not half; that's unbalanced.
now, concerning the Bomberman Master Trait... ok ok, i went overboard on the required traits. so tone em down. but in the spirit of Kornel's Master Trait idea, the no melee weapon or trait is required. as for the blast radius, ok, how do u fit enough explosives to make a 5x5 blast radius fit in a 10mm bullet? i thought so. 3x3 is pretty powerful, when u think about it, because, for instance, it can make small, controlled holes in walls, and also deal with enemies clustered on useless ammo!
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The boringness and platform action was what got to me in that game mostly. Even with cheats it was only barely palatable.
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Games boil down to personal taste. Some people can't stand Turok and others love it.
The same applies to Doom, Roguelikes and DoomRL.
AFAIK armour only comes in three flavours, 1 points, 2 points and 4 points. Armour (I know for a fact) works on the formula "Damage = (Damage+SOAG)-(Armour+TAN)" and about the only critter where an AP talent would be worthwhile is on the Cyberdemon.
You can pretty much achieve armourpiercing through use of SOAG.
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Or Son of a Bitch. That's armor piercing for every weapon in the game.
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ohhhhh ok only one lvl then, but what is TAN??????
supernaut, ty! i found the newest turoks only cool in certain parts, but Turok 2: Seeds of Evil (N64) was, on reflection, probably the least boring FPS/Ac/Ad game i have EVER played, with the possible exeption of Blake Stone: Aliens of Gold (ANCIENT PC game, made by apogee [original Duke Nukem makers])
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ohhhhh ok only one lvl then, but what is TAN??????
supernaut, ty! i found the newest turoks only cool in certain parts, but Turok 2: Seeds of Evil (N64) was, on reflection, probably the least boring FPS/Ac/Ad
Np ;) . TaN - Tough as Nails, a trait giving you one point of armour. I think Turok 2 was pretty cool, but if I remember correctly the monsters spawned occasionally, which kinda annoyed me, but I still enjoyed the game.
But Duke Nukem was totally amazing :D.
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What does a 1-point-AP give you that SoaB doesn't...?
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Just two more things:
1) A trait that turns your mundane weapons into armor piercing weapons is just plain stupid. It doesn't make any sense at all.
2) If you want armor piercing soooooo badly, just make it a weapon mod. That would make sense but would be less useful than the damage mod :p
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What does a 1-point-AP give you that SoaB doesn't...?
Probably something I didn't consider...
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1) A trait that turns your mundane weapons into armor piercing weapons is just plain stupid. It doesn't make any sense at all.
I disagree. Consider what you can do with knowledge of your enemy's armor patterns, and therefore of the vulnerable spots on them. "Find weakness" kind of a thing.
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I disagree. Consider what you can do with knowledge of your enemy's armor patterns, and therefore of the vulnerable spots on them. "Find weakness" kind of a thing.
SoaB = find weakness. But the weak spot isn't always unprotected, so armor still applies.
Knowing where the weak spot of an enemy's armor is doesn't mean you can punch trough it. Extreme example: just because you know where a tank's weakest spot is doesn't make it vulnerable to a handgun.
Besides, the simple "reduces DR" approach is, as you already noticed, quite useless (and boring) because it's basically the same as SoaB etc. And it'll get worse once the new version comes out :p
The only interesting approach to the whole armor piercing topic would be to increase the minimum damage.
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I disagree. Consider what you can do with knowledge of your enemy's armor patterns, and therefore of the vulnerable spots on them. "Find weakness" kind of a thing.
SoaB = find weakness. But the weak spot isn't always unprotected, so armor still applies.
Knowing where the weak spot of an enemy's armor is doesn't mean you can punch trough it. Extreme example: just because you know where a tank's weakest spot is doesn't make it vulnerable to a handgun.
The tank's weakest spot is it's crew, and they ARE vulnerable to a handgun ;)
Because you know, that a chainmail is not covered under arms you know it would be better to strike there instead of fx into the chest. And this DOES make it more vulnerable to hits ;)
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I think DaEezT's point is that the crew may be vulnerable to bullets, but that doesn't mean you can reach it with them, and I think I understand the logic in his explanation, though I'm not sure it's the only way to think about it. Anyway, I'm not up to discussing that today :)
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I think DaEezT's point is that the crew may be vulnerable to bullets, but that doesn't mean you can reach it with them, and I think I understand the logic in his explanation, though I'm not sure it's the only way to think about it. Anyway, I'm not up to discussing that today :)
I think the example with the tank was bad. Me talking about the crew which was a quick spot was a joke. Pizzas were hot dogs.
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Joke or not, I lost you man 8)
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Nobody understands me...Everyone hates me... Nooo
*falls into the abyss*
*comes out of the dark*
l00L u N00bs I PWN u @ll ! I am MeGa L33T sUpeRnaUt!!! Phear mE !!!
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Gah! It's a 1337-speaker!
*shoots Supernaut with a Jackhammer a few times, then gets a .45 and shoots the bloody corpse a few more times in the head*
Phew, he nearly infected p30pl3.
....
*puts the .45 in his mouth and fires once*
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ok first of all:
Supernaut, yeah duke nukem is a classic! apogee made THE original numbers 1 and 2, then changed to 3D Realms and made Duke Nukem 3D, then made a couple non-pc duke games! apogee also made: Raptor; Call of the Shadows, the Commander Keen series, Rise of the Triad, Wacky Wheels, Terminal Velocity, Wolfenstien (i think) and a number of others, ALL of which are Excellent!
2nd,DaEezT good idea! make it a weapon mod, but if so, make it powerful! as weapon mod it ignores armor! dont put it on anything but shotguns, pistols, and chainguns. possibly rocket launchers!
3rd, for my HE argument look at the Requests Topic called "Shottyman Challenge"
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Commander Keen's ID, so is Wolfenstein. I don't know about the others.
I really have no idea how weapon mods work, but if there are weapon restrictions, then restrict AP to pistols and CGs. RLs and SGs are already "AP", courtesy of their massive damage, and AP SGs don't really make sense to me, anyway.
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Apogee did not make commander keen. Id did and just had Apogee publish it.
When I said SoaG earlier on, I ment SoaB.
Also I do not understand what the big debate about tanks and SoaB is all about. I've already explained how simple the damage formula in DRL is and no matter how much armour a player or monster is carrying, it will ALWAYS be vulnerable to a handgun.
A pair of advanced handguns with a ton of weapon mods on them as well as level 3 SoaB and SoaG.
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I don't remember which Naked Gun it was where a character portrayed by O. J. Simpson pulled out a gun and connected to it what seemed to be a silencer, then continued attaching parts to it, until it was a stationary artillery piece which he subsequently fired to great, blasting effect.
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TFoN, AWESOME! that must have been one awesome weapon!
Id did DOOM, numbskull!!!!!!!! although DN 1 & 2 were apogee, while DN3d was 3dRealms! (one in the same, actually!) btw go on 3d Realms website to purchase downloads of all thier games, even the apogee ones! (i suggest Blake Stone: AoG and Raptor: Call of the Shadows)
Anticheese, if handguns are so powerful, why is it nearly impossible to kill the Cyberdemon in AoM?????
yeah, no AP RLs or SGs. SGs are much more logical with an HE mod! (HE shotgun shells are pretty much the only kind of shells you can find in real life other than normal!)
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Normal handguns only deal 1d6 damage (for those of you outside of the know, thats a standard six sided dice rolled for damage once) and advanced pistols deal 2d6. Pistols only become a serious weapon when SoaG (Son of a gun: +2 pistol damage) and SoaB (Son of a b**ch: +1 damage in general) reach level 3 (the highest trait level), one level of Dualgunner (enables dual wielding of pistols) and many weapon mods.
You're looking at focusing your entire game on pistols which does not happen much outside of the AoM challenge.
So at 2d6 + 6 + 3 + (however much weapon damage mods deal..I haven't paid much attention to them) times two..that gives you (2-12 + 9)x2 damage per shot which is a minimum of 22 and a maximum of 42 damage per shot. Not counting weapon mods.
I don't know how much in the way of hitpoints the Cyberdemon has, nor armour so I cannot give you the average number of bullets required to defeat him.
Another reason why it is a pain to kill the cyberdemon is that most weapons at and above the level of the Chaingun are a far better choice to kill the beast with.
1d5*5 per chaingun salvo will produce anywhere between 5 to 25 points of damage WITHOUT any feats, each shot gets its own chance to hit so on the whole it will hit more often.
The rocket launcher deals 3d5 points of damage (correct me if I'm wrong. I'm only quoting from memory) with a blast radius of about 5. This means you can hit the cyberdemon even if you miss as blast damage is pretty much unavoidable.
The bad news is that he has one too.
Plasma rifles and BFG9K's are the most powerful ranged weapons in the game and deal a ton of damage. I think plasma rifles do something like 2d6*6...
Which brings us back to the humble pistol - Usually the weakest weapon in the game.
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Yes, Id did Doom. No one disputes that. I only said that Id were also responsible for Commander Keen - one of the best platformer games of all time.
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Anti, this is incorrect on a few egregious counts.
Normal handguns only deal 1d6 damage (for those of you outside of the know, thats a standard six sided dice rolled for damage once) and advanced pistols deal 2d6.
Not even true in the 9.8.5 release; normal pistols deal 2d4 damage, while advanced pistols deal 2d5 damage (in the beta, both types deal 2d4 damage).
Pistols only become a serious weapon when SoaG (Son of a gun: +2 pistol damage) and SoaB (Son of a b**ch: +1 damage in general) reach level 3 (the highest trait level), one level of Dualgunner (enables dual wielding of pistols) and many weapon mods.
Not quite. You definitely need SoG to make the pistol worth your while, but I don't remember ever taking SoB in any of my AoMr games (at least, definitely not before Fin). Plus, SoG is not just extra damage, it also reduces firing speed by 200 energy per level (where your normal firing speed is 1000 energy, meaning that at level 3 of SoG you only spend 400 energy to shoot things). Finesse actually seems slightly better than SoB as well. Let's say you've got two characters, both with SoG 3. One has Fin 2 in addition, while the other has SoB 3 in addition (to the SoG 3). They're both firing 1 pistol. The guy with SoB 3 is shooting 6 shots that deal 2d5 + 9 damage, or in other words 6 shots that range in damage from 11-19 (average damage being 15), at an energy cost of 400 per shot and 2400 energy total to empty the whole clip. The guy with Fin 2 is shooting 6 shots that deal 2d5 + 6 damage or range from 8-16 (average damage being 12), at a cost of 200 energy per shot and with a total of 1200 energy for the whole clip. Now, the player with SoB 3 will do on average 90 damage with a full clip, and only end up spending 2400 energy. This is great if you're only taking on one enemy; according to the wiki information you could even [barely] take out a Vile with this setup (armor is taken into account too) before needing to reload. Compared to the measly 72 damage the guy with Fin 2 gets, this seems like a sweet deal. But consider this: What happens if you miss, or simply find you can't take that enemy down with one clip? The Fin 2 guy gets the chance to reload, and takes just as much energy as the SoB guy has simply shooting. Plus, the Fin 2 guy has a spare level, which he could use on DG 1; this'll make him take 280 energy to fire, but he gets an extra 8-14 damage that raises his average damage from that measly 72 to 138, and his total energy cost even with the DG penalty is only 1680 (for reference, it takes normally takes 1000 energy to fire once, move, or heal; it takes 1200 energy to reload). Add on to this one of the special advanced traits in the beta (which makes spoilies even better) and I rather think Finesse is the winner.
I don't know how much in the way of hitpoints the Cyberdemon has, nor armour so I cannot give you the average number of bullets required to defeat him.
According to the wiki, Cybie's got 200 HP and has red armor level protection. So if you managed to trick out your character with 3 SoG, 3 SoB, 3 DG, and 2 Fin, assuming average damage and non-beta it would either take about 16 bullets (8 shots per gun; two guns) plus an R after the first 12 run out (average damage = 15((2+10)/2 + 9) + 14((2+8)/2 + 9) = 29; 29 - 4 = 25, 200/25 = 8) for a total energy cost of 5600 (16 * 200 = 3600 + assumed R = 2400 energy), or about 17 bullets (first 12 shots coming from both guns as before) plus an r after the first 12 are fired (first 12 shots do 150 (25 * 6) damage to Cybie, last 5 do 11 damage (15 - 4) each, leaving Cybie at -5 HP on the last shot) for a total energy cost of 4600 (1200 + (17 * 200)). Actually, now that I look at it it seems like the single reload wins this bit (actually, it still does even if you're able to get Reloader 2; the only way you'll ever beat the single reload with two guns is if you find a fastload pistol for the second slot, and even then you'll need at least Reloader 2 to make the dual reload faster than the single reload).
Another reason why it is a pain to kill the cyberdemon is that most weapons at and above the level of the Chaingun are a far better choice to kill the beast with.
I wouldn't say that chainguns are really a lot better than the pistol; assuming you have Int 3 and thus can always hit Cybie even when he's out of range, the math looks like this: Because Cybie basically has permanent red armor, chaingun shots practically bounce off of him (even assuming the minimum damage is 1, that still means that the damage range is 1-2, practically as bad as trying to punch Cybie to death [6-4=2, and that's the most an unmodified chaingun can do!]) unless you have some SoB, and even with SoB 3 the damage range for a chaingun is still reduced to 4-20 (average damage: 12). In comparison, a pistol user with only SoG 3 gets a damage range of 5-13 (average damage: 9) and uses 600 energy less to fire. Not as much damage, but a lot more time to react to Cybie with the same number of traits. I won't disagree with you on the subject of the BFG or rocket launcher though...
1d5*5 per chaingun salvo will produce anywhere between 5 to 25 points of damage WITHOUT any feats, each shot gets its own chance to hit so on the whole it will hit more often.
Incorrect. It does 1d6*5 damage, and each shot also gets individually reduced in damage by armor (which means if you meet a human commando [naturally gets two levels of TaN] wearing blue armor, you'll be doing 1-2 points of damage per shot) as mentioned above.
The rocket launcher deals 3d5 points of damage (correct me if I'm wrong. I'm only quoting from memory) with a blast radius of about 5. This means you can hit the cyberdemon even if you miss as blast damage is pretty much unavoidable.
Rocket launchers deal 4d4 points of damage, not 3d5. And if there are no walls nearby you won't do any blast damage to Cybie.
Plasma rifles and BFG9K's are the most powerful ranged weapons in the game and deal a ton of damage. I think plasma rifles do something like 2d6*6...
Like I said, not gonna argue on the point of BFG's. However, plasma rifles do 1d8*8 damage. For the record, BFGs do 8d8 damage.
Which brings us back to the humble pistol - Usually the weakest weapon in the game.
No. Weakest unmodified gun, perhaps, but not weakest unmodified weapon.. the knife/fists fit that category at 1d6/1d2 damage. It also gets some very, very nice traits to balance it's initial weakness.
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No. Weakest unmodified gun, perhaps, but not weakest unmodified weapon.. the knife/fists fit that category at 1d6/1d2 damage. It also gets some very, very nice traits to balance it's initial weakness.
With brute 3 and while berserking punching him to death wont be that hard ;)
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:P You quoted the wrong spot. Though I doubt anyone but Blade would actually bother trying to punch Cybie to death (you'd have to punch him at least 20-25 times or so to kill him even with Brute 3).
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Well, he wanted a new challenge anyways ;)
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Ah, ok...
Blade, your new challenge is to go through N! using only your fists.
Sound good? :P
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And having at least 75% of kills. Tough enough ;p (Am I evil?)
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SGs are much more logical with an HE mod! (HE shotgun shells are pretty much the only kind of shells you can find in real life other than normal!)
I assume HE means High Explosives. If this isn't the case, then I've been looking for the wrong thing all along :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun#Ammunition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun#Ammunition)
Nothing about those here, at all, as far as I could find. I also crossed there Shotgun with High Explosives, which found nothing I was looking for.
Please show me something to back up the existence and use of this ammo type. If they're for real, it's very odd that I haven't found anything about them yet.
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And having at least 75% of kills. Tough enough ;p (Am I evil?)
Actually, you can't do this on N! unless you are REALLY lucky as far as enemy placement or avoiding damage is concerned (since the corpses are constantly raising, and while there are ways to prevent corpse raising they require that you kill baddies either on doors, on other corpses, or on one of the liquid floors [water, acid, and lava]). Most likely before you reach the stairs at least a few enemies of those left will be raised by the game, and so it'd be nigh-impossible to really do this intentionally (unless of course you don't mind being really, really slow about it and abuse the AI at all times). On the other hand, I'd say if kills are a factor in an ULTIMATE CHALLENGE </gameshow announcer voice> then why not 100% kills using only your fists on UV? No corpse raising, so it would be at least possible to be sure everything was dead before descending the stairs.
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TFoN, wiki this: "High Explosive Incendiary/Armor Piercing Ammunition". technically it does not mention them as shotgun shells, but then again thats a HEAP round, which is armour piercing, and SG's in real life are notorious for being useless against armor. then again, they dont have to be, as the spread will rip limbs off, even heads. also HEAP is for rifles, and other point-tipped ammo types. but you can see it has been done. and if it doesnt exist why is it mentioned in almost everything?
punching the cyberdemon to death is pure suicide. even if u had all the bonuses, and lots of meds, and lots of armor... ull never get close enough. his rockets knock u back a space always, 2 usually, i think ive even seen 3 spaces of knockback at point-blank! the closer u get, the more likely he will hit, and the farther back you will get pushed! pure suicide. even if u used the chainsaw!
oh... i had a revelation on the whole special ammunition idea! if Doom 2 had the shotgun, and then the super shotgun, which are basically the same thing, except double the damage and reload time, then why not alternate ammo?
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Your many alternate ammo types = complicated.
A double-barreled shotgun and a single-barreled shotgun = not complicated.
Make sense yet?
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ok im a little bit of an idiot, but... 2 or 3 ammo types for maybe 1 or 2 weapons? thats not complicated!
but... i concede. permanently. but NOT on the weapon mod part!
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TFoN, wiki this: "High Explosive Incendiary/Armor Piercing Ammunition". technically it does not mention them as shotgun shells, but then again thats a HEAP round, which is armour piercing, and SG's in real life are notorious for being useless against armor. then again, they dont have to be, as the spread will rip limbs off, even heads. also HEAP is for rifles, and other point-tipped ammo types. but you can see it has been done. and if it doesnt exist why is it mentioned in almost everything?
Ahhh, well, that makes all the difference - you're not talking about proper shotgun shells.
Anyway, these implemented (as they are) in shotguns would change the shotgun into a very different kind of weapon, as the spread would be taken away in favour of a solid body to contain the explosives on their way to the target.
In game terms, this kind of thing would be very much like a suggestion I once had for Assault Shotguns and Solid Slugs.
http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php?topic=601.0 (http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php?topic=601.0)
Notice that this isn't a suggestion for a new kind of ammo, but for a weapon that uses normal shells in a different way, based on SG behaviour in the original Doom.
punching the cyberdemon to death is pure suicide. even if u had all the bonuses, and lots of meds, and lots of armor... ull never get close enough. his rockets knock u back a space always, 2 usually, i think ive even seen 3 spaces of knockback at point-blank! the closer u get, the more likely he will hit, and the farther back you will get pushed! pure suicide. even if u used the chainsaw!
Hellrunner(3)+coward causes all, or very nearly all, of Cybie's rockets to miss, Brute(3) has a damage bonus of 9/12 (depending on the source), compared with Cybie's 4 armor, and Berserker(3) causes an average of 1 in ~8 hits to turn you into a real killing machine, though if it's an AoB game, that's an almost assured state anyway. All this takes is clvl9, and this trait list is good for melee as it is, making it more than just a "if you somehow survive that far" situation.
oh... i had a revelation on the whole special ammunition idea! if Doom 2 had the shotgun, and then the super shotgun, which are basically the same thing, except double the damage and reload time, then why not alternate ammo?
Because the difference between a SG and a DblSG is the difference between 3 and 5, while alternate ammo is a cross between 3 and 5 and the list of ammo types, making for at least 4 different possibilities, which will also add at least one more key/key property to the game, and the number will certainly grow as more ammo types follow - which is way too many options for the simple, straight forward, find-a-bigger-gun kind of game that DoomRL is. But now I can also say: take this idea to AliensRL. That's also what I intend on doing with the slugs mentioned earlier. It's a much more tactical game (or at least will be), and multiple possibilities will probably be much better appreciated.
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good idea, for aliensRL.
the explosive shells fire just like a normal shotgun shell, they spread out. but each piece, when introduced to a breathable atmosphere, is catalyzed, which makes it impact-sensitive. the spread hits, BOOM, explosion.
okay, got it, punching the cyber isnt suicide.
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the explosive shells fire just like a normal shotgun shell, they spread out. but each piece, when introduced to a breathable atmosphere, is catalyzed, which makes it impact-sensitive. the spread hits, BOOM, explosion.
Are you telling me that the slightest crack in the insulation of a single pellet makes a bundle of ammo the equivalent of carrying nitroglycerin by the kilo?! I hardly find that worth the while...
If anything, I'd make the explosives sensitive to acceleration, but I'm really not "in the know" on these matters, and have no real idea if this is possible.
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ummm no if there was a crack it would go off in the factory! duhhhhh....
the peices are made up of a chemical that, when introduced to oxygen/ normal atmosphere, rapidly reacts to become highly shock sensitive. it cant go off on its own, the only way the cartridge can be broken is from the inside, via the firing charge, which has to be struck by the trigger. if the cartridge is misformed, then it will go off in a test chamber, in the factory. also the firing charge isnt thermal, so if one goes off, it wont matter. (other than sending the rest of the shells flying a few feet)
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I'm not talking about manufacture imperfections, I'm talking about damage caused by field activity (although it could certainly be a blend of the two, where an imperfect case is breached by relatively light field activity, preventing early detection of the flaw by a system ment to not detonate every single pellet just to make sure that "it would have made it later" or damage it to the point that "it could have, but can't now that we've checked").
also the firing charge isnt thermal, so if one goes off, it wont matter. (other than sending the rest of the shells flying a few feet)
If this is the same explosive which should be able to breach its own casing - then won't it cause just the kind of insulation damage I'm talking about? In that case, sending them flying a few feet's exactly the problem, as any such flight ends with concussion - and that's after the serious concussion which sent them flying in the first place, after breaching the casing and exposing it to the atmosphere. Moreover, any blast capable of sending a soldier's ammo flying's already a serious risk to the soldier, even if it doesn't cause the rest of his ammo to go off.
the only way the cartridge can be broken is from the inside, via the firing charge, which has to be struck by the trigger
First, it has to either be struck by the trigger *or by something of [mostly] equal force*, like the force created by that cracked single pellet.
Second, how do you intend to design the cartridge so that it can *only* be borken from the inside, and not by other exploding materials (as the potentially fired type) or by some sort of external hazard, like an aimed (or stray) bullet...?
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I'd just stick with those armor piercing frangible rounds they invented recently (I forget what their actual name is). The way the bullets are designed they get somehow pierce through armor like your typical AP bullets but burst inside the target doing more damage.
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i give up
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Please consider interface easiness when thinking about special ammo. This is the major reason that I gave up on that idea. But ph33r not, Weapon Mods in 0.9.8.7 will make up for that lack ;].
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ReppoRipper, I don't mean to be hardheaded and go against your idea just for the sake of disagreement. I hope you understand that.
Kornel - what about ammo types AliensRL? Simple UI's still a consideration, but as a more serious and "realistic" (as much as that description fits) tactical game, some complication isn't much of a tradeoff. I'd figure it's part of the deal. Many of the ideas here'll fit into there much better than they can into DoomRL.
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Actually in AliensRL it might be more possible, because of the ammo handling. I'll think about it.