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1
Discussion / Re: My Dream Patch Notes v1.0
« on: March 03, 2009, 17:30 »About the spike treads, boots already have an inital lowering of knockback. That's more the reason why I think the mod would pretty much be useless. Furthermore, I wouldn't want an extremely high knockback protection. Knockback can help you get out of a really bad situtaion *provided you survive the inital attack(s)*.
Good point about demon stalker for melee builds, though it makes me bring up the point that this game isn't like most roguelikes *at least the ones I've played* its based off Doom, a game where you use EVERY weapon, not just limiting yourself to one or two. I'm a real Doom fanatic and i'm a bit more biased for DoomRL to be more doomish then RL...which is why I like seeing alot of suggestions...broadens my view, not to mention allows good debating like this :).
I forgot about your Rocket Jockey idea to be honest after I browsed over it a few times :S...in some cases it would be better, in others Ironman would be *When Spideys Attack! A horror movie coming to your location!...or...Pain elemental cavern anyone?*. Plus factoring in the armor reduction could make Rocket Jockey overpowered. I don't think I've ever seen a monster above Hell knight miss more than 1 out of 4 melee strikes...if even that. Then again, I always play on UV/N!, where accuracy is higher for your enemies if I remember correctly. Btw...what is that...shady thing lurking in the corner...*pokes shady thing* ;)
The accuracy thing for the shotty just really doesn't appeal to me...For most people who stick to builds it works I guess, but I don't stick to one weapon, I use most of them. I stick to the combat shotty for groups of weak/mid hellspawn or even large groups of tougher foes, rockets for Arch-Viles and what they're ressing, CG for the base weapon, and PG for when I really need frying power.
About 2x berserk duration...even with the nerfed effects, +2 damage reduction with your 2 TaN and your improved Protection modded Red armor '+6'...=10. Still to powerful to have the double duration, particularly with Rocket Jockey. Map size may be alot smaller...but you're also dealing with the fact that you can't just run circles around the monsters like you can in Doom.
Interesting idea. As Kornel said though...its a coffee break game. If a varient is made however...as I said....interesting idea :P.
Kornel answered the last two pretty well. He is the shady lurking creator in the corner after all.
Like I said, the numbers in my first post would definitely be subject to playtesting and tweaking, maybe you're right that 40% is too much on Rocket Jockey, and the boost to Berserk duration as well. There isn't really a point in picking on numbers like that without a way to test them. I keep talking about shotties because imo they just aren't good weapons as it is right now. It isn't even about making a "build" around using just them. I guess if you're out of chaingun ammo it could be worth it, but there are very few times you would be fighting a crowd of monsters and be incapable of just using a rocket and killing them all at long range if you're smart and blow up walls instead of opening doors to rooms full of baddies once you've got the RL.
2
Discussion / Re: My Dream Patch Notes v1.0
« on: March 03, 2009, 17:19 »Just a quick note as I have a free moment - LoneVandal, many things you suggest to "fix" are very conscious and throught-through design decisions. Examples :
1) the lack of health and armor regeneration ( with the latter being only broken by two uniques ) is BECAUSE of the lack of time limit, and to maintain the dynamics of the game ( constant move, because there's no reason to stay in place ). The same goes for sneaking.
2) lack of classes ( and skills per se ) is too allow a very quick jump-in to the game -- because it's INTENDED to be a coffee break.
3) perks instead of skills are to offer the player an immidate sense of achievement. Some of the traits break that rule, but generally I wanted traits to be a immidate "hurray" gain, instead of tweaking some invisible numbers.
4) uniques and levers serve to add chaos explicitly -- to make make games surprising and not always the same
BTW, "boss" monsters are planned.
DoomRL games are meant to be streamlined, quick, chaotic and deadly. The true challange is to make it more interesting and allow more options without sacrificing that.* Kornel Kisielewicz goes back in hiding, mumbling something about a started DoomRL 2 codebase...
You're right that the stuff I started getting into in the last few posts are more about deepening the game, I wasn't considering keeping it "coffee break" styled (sorry). I guess a lot of those kinds of changes would be more of an offshoot like ZAngband or something ultimately.
I can't agree though that uniques and levers make the game better. There is no reward worth the risk (unavoidable death) of pulling an unidentified lever, or worth the perk point spent on ID'ing them.
Uniques just make the game easy, if we can assume you've balanced the game to be winnable without them (I believe it is). Yeah it is real cool when you find one, and it is good that you can't scum to generate them, but the other thing they do is make your mod system irrelevant along with Whiz Kid, and Finesse is already a very low priority perk for most builds.
While limiting myself to things I'd love to see without taking DooMRL away from the "coffee break" status, I guess I'm left with:
More monster variety / behavior variety (no more riskless rocket launcher Baron kills) / attack variety as you get deeper in the complex / hell.
More risk when engaging monsters in melee (as mentioned, melee combat is one of the least cited reasons someone dies in AoB), and a new perk or two to help deal with it.
Less "no brainer" decisions with regard to the item mod system, 3 good choices for armor / boot mods would be ideal.
More advanced weapon drops instead of uniques, and a little more zazz from weapon mods.
3
Discussion / Re: My Dream Patch Notes v1.0
« on: March 03, 2009, 09:12 »I admit that I didn't have time, nor patience to read the topic throughly (posts with lenght of 2 screens make my eyes bleed), but I read enough to get the general idea, and my opinion is... no. Just no (though I admit that there might be usefull ideas to salvage there).I agree with Malek...the game would change to dramatically for it to really be the DoomRL we've been playing for awhile now. However...this kind of makes me think of Angband in a way that Angband has quite a few varients 'Cthangband for one' made that are different from the original. Perhaps instead of thinking of these suggestions as a dream patch for V1.0 DoomRL you might want to think of them for a varient of DoomRL 'if Kornel allows people to...forgot whether he is going to or not'.
Reason?
Very simple: Such a change that you propose would change DoomRL from a game that I know and got used to in into a campletly different game which, honestly, I probably wouldn't bother to play anymore
Aside from that...
- Sneaking isn't something I'd put in a game like this. After all...with so much gunfire going around all the hellspawn are going to know that you're there and be cautious. If they don't smell you first ;).
- Making all weapons d3 really doesn't seem rougelike to me. I expect to see different sided dice in roguelikes, period.
- Removing Ironman and making it so there's no way to increase your max hp really isn't a good idea. I have been killed while at the normal 50 hp with red armor in one turn before...from a single mancubus and a barrel :S. Actually killed isn't the proper way to say it...more like blown all over the place.
- Quick recovery is a no. Its to easily exploitable for you to just sit on a clear level or in a corner somewhere and get back to 100%.
- Reverse Engineer is way to powerful. There's a ton of items just laying around out there...particularly if an arch-vile is near formers and stays out of sight.
- Halving the healing effects of the small healing globe would really kill you in UV/N!.
- If computer maps were indestructable...yes.
- Inv/SC/MS all can be on the same map in Doom and appear multiple times...it would just seem undoomish to not be able to here. Same with Berserk packs.
- Personally, I'd like to see Stimpacks *heals 10%*, Small medkits *heals 25%*, and Large Medkits *heals full*...or maybe taking something out of the old Strife game...Surgery kit healing full and large medkit healing 50%. Come to think of it...where the hell did I put that Strife cd...erm off topic :S
- I kinda like the armor making you move slower thing...*Watches many forum members shoot him*
- Protection mod for boots is very, very useful in deep A100.
- Self reparing bad for same reason Quick recovery is.
- Medical Augment mod...I like the instant healing idea. Doubling berserk is overpowered *quad berserk for N! :D*.
- Spike Treads eliminating knockback is overpowered.
- Boot Mobility should stay the way it is...20% is overpowered.
- Accuracy mod...Why the hell would I want to narrow the cone of fire for a shotty?
- Magazine mod, Being able to hold more rockets in the rocket launcher would be nice, but a double shotgun is a double shotgun, should not be able to load more then two shells into it at once period.
One other thing to point out...Getting a unique and picking good traits may allow you to win easily on ITYTD, NTR, and maybe even HMP...but UV and particularly N! doesn't allow this. You still have to play smart and even then you can get creamed if you're not lucky. If you can win every UV game you've ever played, you make Blade look like a newbie.
All of these changes would need to be playtested for balance and many would need tweaked in some way before it would feel "right". Spiked Treads reducing knockback by 100% might be too good, maybe 50%-75% would be more appropriate and still desirable. The point is, it should not be an easy decision choosing which mods you use in any situation (as it is right now). They should all be powerful relative to each other. Also, the notes are just a rough draft, so take it with a grain of salt. Some things that do warrant further explanation:
Why would you not allow for a character to become better at getting close to monsters without being noticed (the point of Demon Stalker) based on source material, but allow for extremely random damage, which has nothing to do with the real Doom games? The leading cause of death for melee characters seems to be getting knocked back while trying to approach a monster, while actual melee combat is *relatively* low-risk even without any defensive traits. The bit about monsters that can smell you is a great idea though to keep a Demon Stalker melee player on their toes. Also I'm not talking about true "stealth" like other roguelikes / rpgs, as you would never be able to get closer than 3 squares without them seeing you. Perhaps though, there could be monsters you really DO NOT want to melee (they cause extra armor loss or do a huge amount of damage), that can't smell you, and sneaking past them as a melee character would be the best strategy to advance.
Not having Ironman is compensated for with Rocket Jockey (-40% AoE dmg sustained, at max), which would have been perfect to have in the situation you described. Knife Fighter (+30% melee dodge iirc, at max) would help melee players deal with increased monster melee acc / dmg. For melee characters having Knife Fighter would be a viable choice vs. Tough As Nails early on to help deal with increased danger at melee range.
Smaller cone of fire on a Shotgun would negate the ranged damage penalty as more pellets would hit the same target instead of spreading out like crazy. This would allow a Shotgun specialist to swap shotguns based on the situation, making it a much more viable specialty in the face of Chainguns/Plasma +EE/CE/SoB.
Double Berserk duration wouldn't really be overpowered, it is the effect itself which is overpowered, and I proposed nerfing the bonuses by like 1/2 if you read the whole notes. The thing about limiting item spawns has more to do with the size of the maps, which are tiny compared to most real Doom maps. They can have more redundant items as they can have 300+ monsters in a single level (not counting ressurections by Archviles). I also think some items should always survive explosions, such as weapons themselves (not ammo), armor, health globes, and other instant use powerups.
I was thinking about this exploding ammo bit just and what you said about reverse engineering being too powerful (I agree, there are WAY too many useless weapons lying around after you clear a level). Well, what if weapons had individual parts which degraded with use and required replacement for your gun to continue functioning? This could replace the current mod system by allowing you to truly customize you weapons based on the parts you find. Dismantling a weapon for its parts would become a standard command and not require a trait to use, of course, but maybe with traits (or a real skill based system) you could increase your chances of recovering higher quality parts, thus improving the performance of your gun. Things like, scopes, barrels, stocks, ammo feeders, trigger mechanisms could influence things like critical hits, accuracy, melee dmg from attacking while holding a gun, reload speed, and firing speed respectively. Since individual parts could be damage you could say an explosion has a chance of cooking off explosive ammo inside a gun (plasma based weapons would be immune to this) and damaging / destroying it if caught in a blast.
The more I think about it, changing clip sizes really doesn't even need to be a part of the game, and while you can make a double barrel shotgun behave however you want it to in a video game, I can sort of agree that the changes I proposed don't feel "right" with respect to the source material. The shotty / double shotty were an awesome guns, and I just hope they become awesome in Doom RL, too.
Finally, the lack of a time limit needs addressed honestly. I mentioned above, the game could afford to have much bigger and interesting levels as a result of no time limit, OR one could be introduced. I like Crawl's mutation theme, which would fit in well here considering all the toxic sludge and demonic energy surrounding you at all times. Maybe if you take too long to finish the game you will develop harmful mutations over time, which would allow for the self-repair nanites / quick recovery abilities (assuming the current trait system would still be used) to not be overpowered.
4
Discussion / Re: My Dream Patch Notes v1.0
« on: March 02, 2009, 18:52 »
Kornel, I realize you don't have an infinite amount of time to devote to this game, but it just seems like it is pulling in 2 opposite directions at the same time. I know a lot of your fans love Ao100, the unique weapons, and the more traditional Roguelike features such as switches that can turn a whole floor into lava, but those aren't the things that make your game stand out. The inherited limitation though from your source material is that in DooM there are only a handful of monsters to fight compared to a full on Roguelike (even the original Rogue had 26 iirc), and most of them only have 1 attack. There are a number of ways I could see this game growing though by departing a bit more from the source material:
More monster types not found in DooM but appropriate to the theme of demons from hell with a cybernetic twist (a hovering cyber-eye that summons more monsters to your location if you don't kill them fast enough?)
Upgraded versions of older monster types, with new attacks / behaviors (such as deeper level Lost Souls causing extra armor loss, deep level pink demons having a high chance of disarming your main weapon, cacao demons that can move through walls)
Invisible monsters (you can hear them with your RL's sounds but you can't see them until they are within "x" squares of you, and you can see where their projectiles came from)
Named monsters (like a palette swap from Diablo, sort of mini-bosses used to guard a supply [mods, healthpacks, ammo] cache)
Alternatively, another way this game could really grow without departing from the source material would be larger maps than the Nethack size, featuring generated puzzles as you get deeper in the form of 1-3 keycards and locked doors, though this would be even better if combined with the above "more monster variety" bits. You could also change switches to always spawn with the intent of lowering a specific wall as part of a puzzle to get to the exit (oh god please do this). Randomly generated levels are great, and by making yours more complex it would really enhance the experience on the whole. Since your game has no built in time limit (food, mutations, etc...) there is no reason not to embrace more spacious level design and monster behavior that takes advantage of it (patrols). This would also enhance the exploration aspect of the game.
As for what you've already got going right now that could be expanded on "easily", the weapon modding system you've put in is something not seen in most other roguelikes and would be a great part of your game to give more emphasis. It should be required that you use weapon mods in order to win the game, is what I mean by that, and thoughtful use of them required to win to win in the last 3 difficulties. This is impossible as long as you can just go into a special level and come out with a Plasma rifle with unlimited ammo, or a Missile Launcher that you can kite Barons of Hell with easily (well shoot even the normal rocket launcher is good at that). I know a lot of what I had posted in the dream notes looks like major buffs to the standard moddable weapons as a result, but I hid a disclaimer in there at the top "monster hp increased" to help maintain the difficulty.
I guess I would also add to the dream notes that larger monsters (arachs, knights, barons, mancubus, revenants, etc...) can't be knocked back by your explosives / barrels, or at least only have a CHANCE to be knocked back and not nearly as far. While I'm talking about monster behavior I believe a chance of "flinching" after receiving heavy damage may be a good way to keep non-knockbackables from completely destroying the player. Maybe a new weapon property "Stopping Power", which rates how likely a weapon is to force a "flinch" action in a monster would handle this nicely, and it is reflected in the source as you can "stun" monsters temporarily by shooting them.
Something else that could be really good for the game could be a skill based trait system, coupled with starting player classes and weapon families (I'll explain weapon families after this part). As in, instead of xp levels and picking stuff from a list, your skills get better as you use them. A quick and dirty example of what I'm talking about:
Medicine - You gain more hp when using a medpack and can self diagnose abnormal status effects accurately (game would need some abnormal status effects such as diseases / poisons for that to matter *wink wink nudge nudge*)
Maintenance - You have a higher chance of salvaging an upgrade mod from dismantling weapons, and can apply more mods to a single item (and dismantling weapons would be the only way to find mods)
Shotguns - Your accuracy and reload time while using shotguns
Handguns - Ditto, and, you can dual wield as soon as you find a second pistol in this system, but with an accuracy penalty (that is eventually overcome by 3-4 skill as described below)
Big Guns - Chaingun, Rocket Launcher, BFG
Rifles - Plasma, Sniper
Melee - Your accuracy / dodge ability in melee
The last five weapon skills are actually referring to entire families of weapons and how good the player is at handling them, which could be expanded to include more "standard" types (improved variants to keep up with the tougher new monsters) found as you get deeper in the complex.
Using these traits you could have player archtypes with beginning bonuses / predetermined skill caps (lets assume 2 is competent (no penalties, unless dual wielding), and 4 is the highest skill level for this example) like these:
Medic - Medicine 2(4), Maintenance 1(2), Handguns 1(2), Shotguns 1(3), Rifles 1(2) Heavy Weapons 0(1), Melee 1 (2)
Mechanic - Medicine 1(2), Maintenance 2(4), Handguns 0(1), Shotguns 1(2), Rifles 1(2) Heavy Weapons 1(2), Melee 1 (2)
Officer - Medicine 1(3), Maintenance 1(3) Handguns 1(2), Shotguns 1(2), Rifles 1(2) Heavy Weapons 1(2), Melee 1(2)
Sniper - Medicine 1(2), Maintenance 1(3), Handguns 1(2), Shotguns 1(2), Rifles 2(4) Heavy Weapons 1(2), Melee 0(1)
Skirmisher - Medicine 1(2), Maintenance 1(2), Handguns 1(2), Shotguns 2(4), Rifles 0(1) Heavy Weapons 1(2), Melee 1(3)
Heavy Weapons Guy - Medicine 1(2), Maintenance 1(3), Handguns 0(1), Shotguns 2(3), Rifles 0(1) Heavy Weapons 2(4), Melee 1(2), Sandvich 5(5)
Close Combat Instructor - Medicine 2(3), Maintenance 1(2), Handguns 1(2), Shotguns 1(3) Rifles 0(1) Heavy Weapons 0(1), Melee 2(4)
whew.. that took longer than I thought to write out those demo classes. Anyways this is just an extremely simplified class/skill system example that could be really cool.
More monster types not found in DooM but appropriate to the theme of demons from hell with a cybernetic twist (a hovering cyber-eye that summons more monsters to your location if you don't kill them fast enough?)
Upgraded versions of older monster types, with new attacks / behaviors (such as deeper level Lost Souls causing extra armor loss, deep level pink demons having a high chance of disarming your main weapon, cacao demons that can move through walls)
Invisible monsters (you can hear them with your RL's sounds but you can't see them until they are within "x" squares of you, and you can see where their projectiles came from)
Named monsters (like a palette swap from Diablo, sort of mini-bosses used to guard a supply [mods, healthpacks, ammo] cache)
Alternatively, another way this game could really grow without departing from the source material would be larger maps than the Nethack size, featuring generated puzzles as you get deeper in the form of 1-3 keycards and locked doors, though this would be even better if combined with the above "more monster variety" bits. You could also change switches to always spawn with the intent of lowering a specific wall as part of a puzzle to get to the exit (oh god please do this). Randomly generated levels are great, and by making yours more complex it would really enhance the experience on the whole. Since your game has no built in time limit (food, mutations, etc...) there is no reason not to embrace more spacious level design and monster behavior that takes advantage of it (patrols). This would also enhance the exploration aspect of the game.
As for what you've already got going right now that could be expanded on "easily", the weapon modding system you've put in is something not seen in most other roguelikes and would be a great part of your game to give more emphasis. It should be required that you use weapon mods in order to win the game, is what I mean by that, and thoughtful use of them required to win to win in the last 3 difficulties. This is impossible as long as you can just go into a special level and come out with a Plasma rifle with unlimited ammo, or a Missile Launcher that you can kite Barons of Hell with easily (well shoot even the normal rocket launcher is good at that). I know a lot of what I had posted in the dream notes looks like major buffs to the standard moddable weapons as a result, but I hid a disclaimer in there at the top "monster hp increased" to help maintain the difficulty.
I guess I would also add to the dream notes that larger monsters (arachs, knights, barons, mancubus, revenants, etc...) can't be knocked back by your explosives / barrels, or at least only have a CHANCE to be knocked back and not nearly as far. While I'm talking about monster behavior I believe a chance of "flinching" after receiving heavy damage may be a good way to keep non-knockbackables from completely destroying the player. Maybe a new weapon property "Stopping Power", which rates how likely a weapon is to force a "flinch" action in a monster would handle this nicely, and it is reflected in the source as you can "stun" monsters temporarily by shooting them.
Something else that could be really good for the game could be a skill based trait system, coupled with starting player classes and weapon families (I'll explain weapon families after this part). As in, instead of xp levels and picking stuff from a list, your skills get better as you use them. A quick and dirty example of what I'm talking about:
Medicine - You gain more hp when using a medpack and can self diagnose abnormal status effects accurately (game would need some abnormal status effects such as diseases / poisons for that to matter *wink wink nudge nudge*)
Maintenance - You have a higher chance of salvaging an upgrade mod from dismantling weapons, and can apply more mods to a single item (and dismantling weapons would be the only way to find mods)
Shotguns - Your accuracy and reload time while using shotguns
Handguns - Ditto, and, you can dual wield as soon as you find a second pistol in this system, but with an accuracy penalty (that is eventually overcome by 3-4 skill as described below)
Big Guns - Chaingun, Rocket Launcher, BFG
Rifles - Plasma, Sniper
Melee - Your accuracy / dodge ability in melee
The last five weapon skills are actually referring to entire families of weapons and how good the player is at handling them, which could be expanded to include more "standard" types (improved variants to keep up with the tougher new monsters) found as you get deeper in the complex.
Using these traits you could have player archtypes with beginning bonuses / predetermined skill caps (lets assume 2 is competent (no penalties, unless dual wielding), and 4 is the highest skill level for this example) like these:
Medic - Medicine 2(4), Maintenance 1(2), Handguns 1(2), Shotguns 1(3), Rifles 1(2) Heavy Weapons 0(1), Melee 1 (2)
Mechanic - Medicine 1(2), Maintenance 2(4), Handguns 0(1), Shotguns 1(2), Rifles 1(2) Heavy Weapons 1(2), Melee 1 (2)
Officer - Medicine 1(3), Maintenance 1(3) Handguns 1(2), Shotguns 1(2), Rifles 1(2) Heavy Weapons 1(2), Melee 1(2)
Sniper - Medicine 1(2), Maintenance 1(3), Handguns 1(2), Shotguns 1(2), Rifles 2(4) Heavy Weapons 1(2), Melee 0(1)
Skirmisher - Medicine 1(2), Maintenance 1(2), Handguns 1(2), Shotguns 2(4), Rifles 0(1) Heavy Weapons 1(2), Melee 1(3)
Heavy Weapons Guy - Medicine 1(2), Maintenance 1(3), Handguns 0(1), Shotguns 2(3), Rifles 0(1) Heavy Weapons 2(4), Melee 1(2), Sandvich 5(5)
Close Combat Instructor - Medicine 2(3), Maintenance 1(2), Handguns 1(2), Shotguns 1(3) Rifles 0(1) Heavy Weapons 0(1), Melee 2(4)
whew.. that took longer than I thought to write out those demo classes. Anyways this is just an extremely simplified class/skill system example that could be really cool.
5
Discussion / Re: My Dream Patch Notes v1.0
« on: March 02, 2009, 06:26 »
This game has too many constants supported already (namely, the limited monster types and singular method of killing ALL of them) for wacky RNG to come into play heavily as it does in traditional RLs. The world does not allow the depth of interaction which makes Nethack's RNG so mischievous, yet fair. In DooM RL, with such defined monster progression and tactics, RNG influence just doesn't really have a place in my opinion. I don't want to win the game because I found the Missile Launcher, I want to win because despite the fighting being designed to be difficult, smart decisions about traits and item management (ammo, medkits, mods) leads to victory. As of right now the only difficult part of the game is the very beginning when you have no traits, weapons, or red armor. Once you get to floor 20 you're already a god of death if you picked the right traits, even without a unique weapon. With a unique weapon you may as well quit playing because you can't lose.
How to win DooM RL every time:
No amount of RNG built into the current version DooMRL can beat this strategy as your power grows exponentially (especially with Son of a Bitch). I was able to figure this out in a few days, which would be impossible for most Roguelikes, if you really want to keep going down that road. I appreciate DooMRL for what it is, which is NOT a traditional RL but something unique with interesting enough original gameplay to stand on its own. I would love it if the developer embraced the things that separate it from standard Roguelikes (the item customization system, especially) rather than trying to shoehorn in features from them.
How to win DooM RL every time:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
No amount of RNG built into the current version DooMRL can beat this strategy as your power grows exponentially (especially with Son of a Bitch). I was able to figure this out in a few days, which would be impossible for most Roguelikes, if you really want to keep going down that road. I appreciate DooMRL for what it is, which is NOT a traditional RL but something unique with interesting enough original gameplay to stand on its own. I would love it if the developer embraced the things that separate it from standard Roguelikes (the item customization system, especially) rather than trying to shoehorn in features from them.
6
Discussion / Re: My Dream Patch Notes v1.0
« on: March 01, 2009, 14:12 »
Lets get back on topic, if we could. I'm really glad the whole dual-reload thing is a part of the game already. Moving on!
I guess I could make most of the weapon balance changes myself by modding LUA files once the mod-able version of DooMRL is released? What about things like being able to control weapon behavior, such as allowing the DB Shotgun to be modded for more shells?
I guess I could make most of the weapon balance changes myself by modding LUA files once the mod-able version of DooMRL is released? What about things like being able to control weapon behavior, such as allowing the DB Shotgun to be modded for more shells?
7
Discussion / Re: My Dream Patch Notes v1.0
« on: March 01, 2009, 12:42 »Well, the only right thing i can think of is to add explanation of this feature to the Dualgunner trait description.
Sounds like a good idea to me.
8
Discussion / Re: My Dream Patch Notes v1.0
« on: March 01, 2009, 10:29 »It's from 'getting started' manual. It describes that such feature exists and that you can use it. It must not list all actions that happens when you press 'R' with various weapons (almost every weapon has different action binded on that key, especially unique) - it's up to you to find to find them by trying and testing. This game it a roguelike, after all.
Yes I read the manual, I know what it says, and it in no way indicates that "R" will let you reload 2 weapons at the same time. Any game involves experimentation and learning, but the things a player should be expected to learn are how to overcome obstacles presented by the game, not how to control their own character effectively. For example, learning to use corners and doors effectively, learning which audio cues give away which monster types, learning which character builds are effective (and which ones aren't), learning it is never worth it to pull a switch without Intuition, and learning that non-unique shotguns are currently worthless are all fair things to expect of a player. Character controls don't fall into this category, they fall into the "things about a game that should be properly documented" category.
Quote
You ask, why it's not in the Wiki? DooMRL Wiki is maintained by players of this game, such as you and me, so if you think that special reload of all weapons should be mentioned there - add it. Anyway, i already added it.
Well I didn't actually ask why it wasn't in the wiki, I just stated that it wasn't. It isn't a knock against the wiki or the players contributing to it either, it is me expressing my disbelief that such an important piece of information was completely undocumented.
9
Discussion / Re: My Dream Patch Notes v1.0
« on: March 01, 2009, 10:12 »"- Unique Items, Thermonuclear Bombs, and Homing Phase Devices taken out of the Standard and Challenge game modes, you can now find them only in the Ao 100 floor mode. Both modes have been balanced to account for this change and should have a unique feel while played."
How'd you "balance" for only being able to phase into and out of the center room in the Vaults level? The bulk of the level is inside the vault rooms, meaning that a normal Phase Device is likely to take you right back into a Vault - run out in the middle and, without an HPD, you're screwed. You can't blast your way out of or into the middle.
Well, some changes would have to be made to special levels. The inadvertent point of separating Ao100 and standard / challenge modes is actually to make the latter 2 modes present less randomized gameplay, which in turn emphasizes player build decisions, weapon selection, and overall skill rather than whether you found the Missile Launcher unique weapon early on or not. Or as in your example, whether they found the specific items necessary to actually get all the items in The Vault (even having 3 Phase Devices and a Homing would not guarantee you'd actually accomplish this, though). Some special levels would need to be revamped a bit (or just removed from Standard / Challenge) to compensate for this. The Cathedral, for example would not really serve a purpose since you couldn't get the Spear of Longinus in these modes any more.
10
Discussion / Re: My Dream Patch Notes v1.0
« on: February 28, 2009, 12:25 »I knida want to do a piece by piece deconstruction on why I think a lot of this is a bad set of ideas, but I'll just cover this:
In addition to exiting effects, Akimbo Master now causes you to reload both pistols simultaneously, but increases reload time by 50% (effectively lowers reload time by removing the need to swap weapons with z, reduces individual reload times by 25%, stacks with Reloader for an effective -75% reload time on 2 Pistols)
You can already reload both pistols simultaneoulsy. Use 'R'.
(Though, I do think a greater chance of mods and mods being useful (Advanced weapons) would be nice)
Where does the game tell you that you can reload both weapons at once with alt-reload??? Yeesh. Even the Wiki doesn't mention that anywhere.
11
Discussion / My Dream Patch Notes v1.0
« on: February 28, 2009, 10:49 »
First, I want to thank Kornel for this amazing game. After playing DooM RL obsessively for the last few days I wanted to share my observations. There are some ways I think DooM RL could get even better, despite how good it is now. My total experience is about 50 games and I've attempted both the AoM and AoBs enough to get the first rank up from them. Would have finished Hurt Me Plenty except that I took a (fatal) detour into the Mortuary on floor 22. I actually did make it to the stairs out of there but I wanted to try to clear the map...
I've been trying to organize my thoughts for this post and the best way I can do that is with my dream patch notes for v1.0. Please read the entire list before you decide something sounds like a bad idea, as the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, with the end result being Shotguns, Armor, and Mods being made much more useful and the Traits being brought more in line with each other:
General Gameplay
- Unique Items, Thermonuclear Bombs, and Homing Phase Devices taken out of the Standard and Challenge game modes, you can now find them only in the Ao 100 floor mode. Both modes have been balanced to account for this change and should have a unique feel while played.
- Monster hp raised slightly to compensate for new higher minimum and average weapon damages
- Advanced Weapon drop rate increased in Standard and Challenge game modes to compensate for no longer getting Uniques
- Levers can no longer turn rooms / entire floors into lava or acid, or destroy ALL walls in Standard or Challenge game modes
- New Tactic Added - (S)neaking
- Sneaking makes you invisible to monsters farther than 5 squares away from you, but lowers movement speed by 50% and is reverted to "Cautious" or "Tired" immediately upon attacking or being attacked, and cannot be re-used for 100 seconds
- Melee damage caused by most monsters increased (not for FH soldiers), monster melee accuracy increased across the board
to compensate for the new Knife Fighter Trait and melee weapon Dodge (Parry) Mod
Weapons
- Extended Weapons removed from all modes
- Advanced Weapons reduced to 3 Mod slots by default
- "Regular" Shotgun removed from game
- Advanced Knives and Chainsaws added to loot table, Chainsaw spawn chance increased slightly
- Weapon damage rolls normalized (xd3 based on ammo type) for more predictable damage and easier balancing with new Weapon Mods (could also easily allow for multiple ammo types per weapon in mods / later features)
- Average damage of all weapons increased as a result
- Combat Knife changed to 3d3 base damage
- Chainsaw changed to 9d3 base damage (buffed to compensate for nerf to Brute, and to be kept viable as a melee build main weapon vs. dual knives)
- Pistol changed to 3d3 base damage - Buffed slightly as compensation for the stacking direct +dmg Traits (SoG, SoB) going away
- Combat Shotgun buffed to 8d3 and can now be repeat fired while standing still like any other gun
- Double Barrel Shotgun damage changed to 8d3 x 2 shots to allow more benefit from the new Weapon Damage Mod, Trigger Happy Trait, and can now be upgraded by Magazine Mods
- Combat Shotgun and DB Shotgun bullet spread can be condensed by weapon +acc mods for more concentrated damage at longer ranges
- Chaingun changed to 3d3 x 4 shots, magazine changed to 40 rounds, inventory stacks changed to 80 rounds (dmg slightly buffed as SoB Trait is gone)
- Rocket Launcher changed to 12d3 base damage, can now accept Magazine Mods
- Plasma Rifle changed to 5d3 x 4 shots, magazine changed to 20 rounds, inventory stacks changed to 40 rounds - Lowered # of shots for less wasted ammo on overkills, and limits benefit from certain Traits and Mods
Traits
- Ironman removed
- Son of a Bitch removed
- Trigger Happy now available from game start, effects the DB Shotgun IF you've modified it to hold more than 2 shells
- Reloader - now reduces reload time on all weapons by 25% at rank 1, 50% at rank 2 (max)
- Eagle Eye reduced to 2 ranks max
- Tough As Nails reduced to 2 ranks max
- New Trait - Quick Recovery, unlocked by 2 ranks in Tough as Nails
- Quick Recovery heals the player for 2% every 10 steps at rank 1, 4% hp / 10 steps at rank 2 (max) up to 100% hp
- New Trait - Rocket Jockey, unlocked by Tough as Nails rank 2
- Rocket Jockey - Damage sustained by AoE effects (demons', barrels, or your own) reduced by 20% per rank (2 ranks)
- Badass reduced to 2 ranks, 1st rank triples duration of bonus hp, 2nd rank removes bonus hp decay
- Finesse now gives a 10% chance per rank, per shot fired, to cause a "critical" hit for max damage rolls (i.e. 8d3 Shotgun will do 24 damage) with all weapon types (including melee)
- Finesse no longer reduces firing time
- Whiz Kid renamed Gun Nut and made available at game start
- Gun Nut now increases weapon mod slots by 1 per rank on all weapon types (weapon mods have been improved)
- New Trait - Reverse Engineer, unlocked by rank 2 Gun Nut
- Reverse Engineer - Allows you to (D)ismantle an equippable item (weapon, armor, or boot) in your inventory with a 20% chance to create a random Mod (for the same item type), and 50% chance to recover installed Mods, but the item is destroyed
- New Trait - Armorer, unlocked by rank 1 Gun Nut
- Armorer - Allows one additional Armor or Boot Modification to be installed
- New Trait - Demon Stalker, becomes available after 2 ranks in Hell Runner
- Demon Stalker - Further reduces all demons' ability to see you while Sneaking. You can't be detected until within 4 squares at rank 1, 3 squares at rank 2 (max) and the recharge time on the Sneak tactic is reduced by 25 seconds per rank
- Son of a Gun renamed Double Tap and no longer gives old bonuses
- Double Tap causes you to randomly fire an extra shot (or 2) when equipped with a pistol (or 2), 33-66-100% chance per rank
- Shottyman renamed Run and Gun, now requires 2 ranks in Hell Runner
- Run and Gun allows reloading while moving for Pistols (only for your main hand pistol), both Shotguns, and the Plasma Rifle
- New Trait - Knife Fighter, available from game start
- Knife Fighter increases your evasion to melee attacks by 15% per rank (2 max)
- New Trait - Slice and Dice added, requires 2 ranks in Knife Fighter
- Slice and Dice allows you to attack with a Knife equipped in your prepared weapon slot if you're holding Knives in both hands
- Berserk now triggers as a 10% chance when you take damage (effect lowered to +2 armor +50% melee dmg)
- Brute lowered to +3 dmg and 2 ranks (as melee weapons minimum dmg has been improved, and the old Brute would make Slice and Dice WAY too powerful)
Items
- Small Health Globe healing reduced to 10%
- Large Health Globe spawn chance improved slightly
- Computer Maps can no longer spawn multiple times on one floor
- Supercharge, Invulnerability, and Megasphere can no longer spawn on the same floor, and may only spawn once
- Berserker packs may only spawn once per floor
- Berserker status now increases melee damage by 50% (not 100%) and armor by 2 (no more taking off armor!)
- Small Medpack healing reduced to 25%
- Large Medpack healing reduced to 50%
- Armor no longer reduces movement speed (we've got futuristic lightweight materials that conform to your shape :] )
- Armor Mod - Mobility removed
- Boot Mod - Protection removed
- Durability Mod for Armor / Boots removed
- New Armor / Boot Mod - Self Repairing Nanites - once installed Nanites repair an item over time by 1% per 5 steps
- New Armor Mod - Medical Augment - your armor is modified to automatically (and instantly) use a Large (if available) Medpack from your inventory after taking damage that lowers your health below 25%, and increases the duration of all Berserk effects by 100% (double) by regulating your adrenaline
- Armor Mod - Protection - Now Grants 2 Armor instead of 1 (to compensate for only 2 ranks in Tough as Nails)
- Boots no longer give resistance to being knocked around by default
- Boot Mod - Spiked Treads - Can no longer be knocked around by explosions
- Boot Mod - Mobility - Buffed to 20% speed bonus
- Weapon Mods - All Weapon Mods capped at 2 per type per weapon
- Weapon Accuracy Mod now adds 2 +accuracy and works with Shotgun type weapons to narrow the cone of fire for greater long range damage
- Weapon Magazine Mod now works with ALL standard ranged weapons, Rocket Launcher gains +1 rocket per mod (but loads rockets 1 at a time), Double Shotgun gains +1 shell per mod, but still loads only 2 shells per reload action
- Weapon Damage Mod now based on ammunition type - 10mm bullets cause +1 dmg, shells +3, plasma +2, rockets +4
- Weapon Firing Speed Mod now -20% firing time, stacking (not multiplying)
- Weapon Reload Mod removed
- New *Melee* Weapon Damage Mod - Adds +2 damage
- New *Melee* Weapon Attack Speed Mod - Reduces melee attack time by 20% (stacking, not multiplying)
- New *Melee* Weapon Dodge Mod - Increases chance to dodge (parry) melee attacks by 10%
I have well thought out reasoning behind all of these changes, but I'll save it until someone asks for it as this post is long enough already :] The short version is: with every Item Mod and Trait (nearly) equally desirable, and more viable build options in Standard and Challenge mode play (for example, Chainsaw vs. 2 Knife), replay value and fun of the game will be extended and enhanced. By removing uniques from the Standard and Challenge game modes it is easier to balance monsters and normal / advanced weapons for a more consistent experience overall without having to consider the odds of a player getting their hands on an incredibly powerful (yet random) piece of equipment and most of the remaining challenge being removed from that point on. It also isn't fun trying to plot a character build around an item you might never actually see. By shifting this power into Advanced Weapons and their Mods the growth in player power can be measured more closely, and corresponding difficulty adjustments can be made more easily to keep the game consistently challenging to the end. By leaving the "banned" items in the Ao100 mode they remain a large part of what is the "main" game mode for many players while making Standard and Challenge modes more balanced experiences.
I've been trying to organize my thoughts for this post and the best way I can do that is with my dream patch notes for v1.0. Please read the entire list before you decide something sounds like a bad idea, as the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, with the end result being Shotguns, Armor, and Mods being made much more useful and the Traits being brought more in line with each other:
General Gameplay
- Unique Items, Thermonuclear Bombs, and Homing Phase Devices taken out of the Standard and Challenge game modes, you can now find them only in the Ao 100 floor mode. Both modes have been balanced to account for this change and should have a unique feel while played.
- Monster hp raised slightly to compensate for new higher minimum and average weapon damages
- Advanced Weapon drop rate increased in Standard and Challenge game modes to compensate for no longer getting Uniques
- Levers can no longer turn rooms / entire floors into lava or acid, or destroy ALL walls in Standard or Challenge game modes
- New Tactic Added - (S)neaking
- Sneaking makes you invisible to monsters farther than 5 squares away from you, but lowers movement speed by 50% and is reverted to "Cautious" or "Tired" immediately upon attacking or being attacked, and cannot be re-used for 100 seconds
- Melee damage caused by most monsters increased (not for FH soldiers), monster melee accuracy increased across the board
to compensate for the new Knife Fighter Trait and melee weapon Dodge (Parry) Mod
Weapons
- Extended Weapons removed from all modes
- Advanced Weapons reduced to 3 Mod slots by default
- "Regular" Shotgun removed from game
- Advanced Knives and Chainsaws added to loot table, Chainsaw spawn chance increased slightly
- Weapon damage rolls normalized (xd3 based on ammo type) for more predictable damage and easier balancing with new Weapon Mods (could also easily allow for multiple ammo types per weapon in mods / later features)
- Average damage of all weapons increased as a result
- Combat Knife changed to 3d3 base damage
- Chainsaw changed to 9d3 base damage (buffed to compensate for nerf to Brute, and to be kept viable as a melee build main weapon vs. dual knives)
- Pistol changed to 3d3 base damage - Buffed slightly as compensation for the stacking direct +dmg Traits (SoG, SoB) going away
- Combat Shotgun buffed to 8d3 and can now be repeat fired while standing still like any other gun
- Double Barrel Shotgun damage changed to 8d3 x 2 shots to allow more benefit from the new Weapon Damage Mod, Trigger Happy Trait, and can now be upgraded by Magazine Mods
- Combat Shotgun and DB Shotgun bullet spread can be condensed by weapon +acc mods for more concentrated damage at longer ranges
- Chaingun changed to 3d3 x 4 shots, magazine changed to 40 rounds, inventory stacks changed to 80 rounds (dmg slightly buffed as SoB Trait is gone)
- Rocket Launcher changed to 12d3 base damage, can now accept Magazine Mods
- Plasma Rifle changed to 5d3 x 4 shots, magazine changed to 20 rounds, inventory stacks changed to 40 rounds - Lowered # of shots for less wasted ammo on overkills, and limits benefit from certain Traits and Mods
Traits
- Ironman removed
- Son of a Bitch removed
- Trigger Happy now available from game start, effects the DB Shotgun IF you've modified it to hold more than 2 shells
- Reloader - now reduces reload time on all weapons by 25% at rank 1, 50% at rank 2 (max)
- Eagle Eye reduced to 2 ranks max
- Tough As Nails reduced to 2 ranks max
- New Trait - Quick Recovery, unlocked by 2 ranks in Tough as Nails
- Quick Recovery heals the player for 2% every 10 steps at rank 1, 4% hp / 10 steps at rank 2 (max) up to 100% hp
- New Trait - Rocket Jockey, unlocked by Tough as Nails rank 2
- Rocket Jockey - Damage sustained by AoE effects (demons', barrels, or your own) reduced by 20% per rank (2 ranks)
- Badass reduced to 2 ranks, 1st rank triples duration of bonus hp, 2nd rank removes bonus hp decay
- Finesse now gives a 10% chance per rank, per shot fired, to cause a "critical" hit for max damage rolls (i.e. 8d3 Shotgun will do 24 damage) with all weapon types (including melee)
- Finesse no longer reduces firing time
- Whiz Kid renamed Gun Nut and made available at game start
- Gun Nut now increases weapon mod slots by 1 per rank on all weapon types (weapon mods have been improved)
- New Trait - Reverse Engineer, unlocked by rank 2 Gun Nut
- Reverse Engineer - Allows you to (D)ismantle an equippable item (weapon, armor, or boot) in your inventory with a 20% chance to create a random Mod (for the same item type), and 50% chance to recover installed Mods, but the item is destroyed
- New Trait - Armorer, unlocked by rank 1 Gun Nut
- Armorer - Allows one additional Armor or Boot Modification to be installed
- New Trait - Demon Stalker, becomes available after 2 ranks in Hell Runner
- Demon Stalker - Further reduces all demons' ability to see you while Sneaking. You can't be detected until within 4 squares at rank 1, 3 squares at rank 2 (max) and the recharge time on the Sneak tactic is reduced by 25 seconds per rank
- Son of a Gun renamed Double Tap and no longer gives old bonuses
- Double Tap causes you to randomly fire an extra shot (or 2) when equipped with a pistol (or 2), 33-66-100% chance per rank
- Shottyman renamed Run and Gun, now requires 2 ranks in Hell Runner
- Run and Gun allows reloading while moving for Pistols (only for your main hand pistol), both Shotguns, and the Plasma Rifle
- New Trait - Knife Fighter, available from game start
- Knife Fighter increases your evasion to melee attacks by 15% per rank (2 max)
- New Trait - Slice and Dice added, requires 2 ranks in Knife Fighter
- Slice and Dice allows you to attack with a Knife equipped in your prepared weapon slot if you're holding Knives in both hands
- Berserk now triggers as a 10% chance when you take damage (effect lowered to +2 armor +50% melee dmg)
- Brute lowered to +3 dmg and 2 ranks (as melee weapons minimum dmg has been improved, and the old Brute would make Slice and Dice WAY too powerful)
Items
- Small Health Globe healing reduced to 10%
- Large Health Globe spawn chance improved slightly
- Computer Maps can no longer spawn multiple times on one floor
- Supercharge, Invulnerability, and Megasphere can no longer spawn on the same floor, and may only spawn once
- Berserker packs may only spawn once per floor
- Berserker status now increases melee damage by 50% (not 100%) and armor by 2 (no more taking off armor!)
- Small Medpack healing reduced to 25%
- Large Medpack healing reduced to 50%
- Armor no longer reduces movement speed (we've got futuristic lightweight materials that conform to your shape :] )
- Armor Mod - Mobility removed
- Boot Mod - Protection removed
- Durability Mod for Armor / Boots removed
- New Armor / Boot Mod - Self Repairing Nanites - once installed Nanites repair an item over time by 1% per 5 steps
- New Armor Mod - Medical Augment - your armor is modified to automatically (and instantly) use a Large (if available) Medpack from your inventory after taking damage that lowers your health below 25%, and increases the duration of all Berserk effects by 100% (double) by regulating your adrenaline
- Armor Mod - Protection - Now Grants 2 Armor instead of 1 (to compensate for only 2 ranks in Tough as Nails)
- Boots no longer give resistance to being knocked around by default
- Boot Mod - Spiked Treads - Can no longer be knocked around by explosions
- Boot Mod - Mobility - Buffed to 20% speed bonus
- Weapon Mods - All Weapon Mods capped at 2 per type per weapon
- Weapon Accuracy Mod now adds 2 +accuracy and works with Shotgun type weapons to narrow the cone of fire for greater long range damage
- Weapon Magazine Mod now works with ALL standard ranged weapons, Rocket Launcher gains +1 rocket per mod (but loads rockets 1 at a time), Double Shotgun gains +1 shell per mod, but still loads only 2 shells per reload action
- Weapon Damage Mod now based on ammunition type - 10mm bullets cause +1 dmg, shells +3, plasma +2, rockets +4
- Weapon Firing Speed Mod now -20% firing time, stacking (not multiplying)
- Weapon Reload Mod removed
- New *Melee* Weapon Damage Mod - Adds +2 damage
- New *Melee* Weapon Attack Speed Mod - Reduces melee attack time by 20% (stacking, not multiplying)
- New *Melee* Weapon Dodge Mod - Increases chance to dodge (parry) melee attacks by 10%
I have well thought out reasoning behind all of these changes, but I'll save it until someone asks for it as this post is long enough already :] The short version is: with every Item Mod and Trait (nearly) equally desirable, and more viable build options in Standard and Challenge mode play (for example, Chainsaw vs. 2 Knife), replay value and fun of the game will be extended and enhanced. By removing uniques from the Standard and Challenge game modes it is easier to balance monsters and normal / advanced weapons for a more consistent experience overall without having to consider the odds of a player getting their hands on an incredibly powerful (yet random) piece of equipment and most of the remaining challenge being removed from that point on. It also isn't fun trying to plot a character build around an item you might never actually see. By shifting this power into Advanced Weapons and their Mods the growth in player power can be measured more closely, and corresponding difficulty adjustments can be made more easily to keep the game consistently challenging to the end. By leaving the "banned" items in the Ao100 mode they remain a large part of what is the "main" game mode for many players while making Standard and Challenge modes more balanced experiences.
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