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Messages - Demetrious

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you might come off as a little less hostile if you reined in some of the metaphor.

I laud them as "ninjas" who's exploits are spoken of in tones of awe and I'm coming across as hostile? I honestly apologize. I never want people to read hostility in my tone unless I explicitly intend it.

Quote from: 2DeviationsOut
If you're complaining about having to learn a new set of commands to play a game, and you can't be bothered to script your own custom commands, then you probably should go back to Call of Duty.

2DeviationsOUt, I wish to explicitly express great hostility to you. I'm a lifelong Roguelike player, Multi-User-Dungeon player and simulation gamer. I play IL-2 as often as I'm able, and IL-2 has dozens of critical controls completely unscripted - no default keys, you've got to set them up yourself, and best be hoping you've set keys for opening your canopy, raising your seat, engaging/disengaging wheel chocks and manually cranking up your landing gear if you ever want to look sideways at an F-3F Wildcat. It's even more fun with Complex Engine Management; enjoy setting up keys for mixture control, prop pitch and radiator flaps. Let's not forget bombsight controls; increase/decrease speed, altitude, target altitude, adjust bombsight angle, toggle auto mode. Like most adults with a paying job I can't "study" a game so obsessively that even compensating for UI quirks becomes flawless, unconscious muscle reflex - but you might say I've scripted a few commands.

And unlike a Roguelike, you're using all these keys in extremely "fast and furious" combat; e.g. "closing with a Bf-109 in a head-on merge at 700 combined MPH" fast, making snap judgements on speed, angles, energy, potential energy and positioning as you think ten steps ahead in about a second and a half.

So try to appreciate just how much it pisses me off to have you telling me to "go back to Call of Duty." Because I complained about "having to learn a new set of commands." I've got a $40 copy of Shaw's Fighter Combat sitting on my desk - that's a textbook still used to teach actual fighter pilots how to fly. I learned how to play submarine simulators by reading books written by WWII submarine commanders. "Learn a new set of commands?" Chum, I do homework for my games.

So when I, of all people, say a particular user interface can be a pain in the ass, you may consider that a statement.

Quote from: 2DeviationsOut
I feel that a lot of the complaints about randomness/interface are actually barely disguised complaints about difficulty.

Despite some very succinct explanations meant to counter that exact accusation:

Quote from: Demetrious
Yes, we must distinguish between conscious gameplay decisions and unintentional actions input into the program because of human/machine interface issues.

However, this isn't fair. I'm new here, after all; quite likely this is a recurring thread oft filled with the bitter tears of newbies whom did not fathom that the "Living Hell" part of Doom RL was not entirely metaphorical. So even though nobody in this thread is whining about difficulty levels, you just jumped the gun and spoke directly to the typical root of most UI complaints. I get that.

But please understand that not everyone raising these concerns are "new/casuals" who need to "learn to play," and so glibly blowing them off as such while you talk down to them might really, really, really rustle their jimmies.

I thank you for your consideration.

It's just that a lot of it is cloaked in words that I perceived as whining

Yes, we must distinguish between conscious gameplay decisions and unintentional actions input into the program because of human/machine interface issues. If we're expected to devote time to making proper use of the interface as-designed a second-nature habit, then I'll probably never play Doom RL again. I'm an adult, you know? I've got a job, and responsibilities, and the paperwork and everything. I have enough time to play games but not enough time to make a fucking study of them. Which is exactly why I don't play Nethack anymore; games I used to play when I was a basement-dwelling CHUD of the highest order.

You diamond-badge earning Roguelike ninas; I respect and fear your skills. We surface-dwellers may speak glibly, but at night we tell of your exploits in awed whispers. But at the moment, the price of following your steps is too high.

Quote from: Ashannar
What if I want to lean on the keys while an enemy is visible?

Nice strawman. Because I'm sure there's people who really really really want to commit guaranteed suicide. I'm sure there's legions of people who consider the current ability to do that a feature they'd sorely miss.

And it's a silly argument anyways, because that's what .ini files are for, toggling options like that. Like the first-level tooltips.

Quote from: Ashannar
It seems absolutely absurd to me that you complain about getting hit if you reload while enemies are in line of sight?

The point is that the interface itself ferments the habit of tapping 'r' really fast, because that's the only halfway safe method of reloading when shift-r is guaranteed suicide most days. The interface helps form the bad habit. But if shift-R would interrupt you mid-reload if an enemy becomes visible, you'd use shift-R for the cleared-room reloads and never develop the bad habit of tapping 'r' fast, because you'd only use 'r' when in actual danger.

Quote from: Ashannar
and prevents the key buffer from queuing moves.

So why isn't this an option for the console version? Dear Mr. Kornel, please add this feature to the console version for next release, if possible. Love, Internet.

I'm even learning to like the game of getting there. It's just the pain of the stupid death that makes me think every time, "there's gotta be another way." Just today I was 70% to MMB bliss, just about to make the decision between a WhizKid detour or straight for the Blades. I was sitting in a cleared room reloading my Combat Shotty when a former commando comes in and wastes me while I'm busy pressing 'r', 'r', 'r', 'r', 'r'.

This happened to me a few nights ago - this exact situation - while I was doing a HMP Tac Launcher run, for the sake of trying it out. I'd been tired, I saved the game, and it tells you to hit "enter" to leave after saving - but I tapped it twice, and so the god-damned thing reloaded the game! Sigh. Had to finish one more level before I could re-save and exit.... and thus I died with an inventory full of large med-packs.

I deleted my 9.9.6. folder after that. All medals, badges, etc, I just clicked on it, dragged it to the trash, then emptied the recycle bin.

I've suffered ragequits before - you've got to me Mother Theresa to play Nethack and not rage-quit occasionally - but this is the first time in my life I've actually deleted a game folder. And it's percisely because of what Napsterbater said - Doom RL is so fun because it really is suited to a quick-and-dirty playstyle. Sometimes you have to slow down and think, but when you come down to it Doom RL is a lot more straightforward then most other Roguelikes out there. There's no herb-growing system, there's no complex potion miscibility tables, there's no alignment system and altars to convert and spell/skill advancement system: you've got a few trait trees and a ton of demons to kill, that's it. So when you get killed for playing fast - when playing fast got you to level 6 of Deimos without a problem - that tends to piss you off.

Doom RL is not your average roguelike; which is a good thing. So to say "that's typical Roguelike interface quibbles suck it up" isn't an argument I've any sympathy for. At the very least a full reload by pressing shift-R should be interrupted by a monster appearing in vision - it takes the exact same time as pressing 'r' five times, it just saves some wear on your keyboard, is all. But since it is not interruptable, you recognize shift-R as AN EVIL COMMAND THAT WILL GET YOU KILLED. So you get into the habit of tapping 'r' incessantly... and it gets you killed.

And the Run command, which never saves anybody.  It's not neglecting the Run command that gets you killed; it's the one time you hold the arrow key down for two seconds because you're tired, or your cat jumped into your lap, etc. I can't tell you how much I love losing hours of patient, grueling gameplay advancement because I held a key down for 2 seconds instead of 1.5 seconds, then coming to the forums to be called stupid. I play games to have fun, not to be kicked in the balls. I play IL-2, and that takes intense focus and concentration and effort, to keep a fighter in the air, on the razor-edge of the performance envelope - but when I die, I just re-plane and hop back in. And I'm focusing on the game, not on the interface. IL-2 doesn't kick me in the sack and steal my pocket change if I bump the joystick wrong. 

Setting up the key-buffer to automatically stop you, and force a new key-tap for every action once an enemy comes into view - that'd be amazing.The key-buffer idea would actually save you frustration in those situations.

Oh, and the Run command.

Quote from: Matt_S
The only thing is, they put the steering in the hands of the game and they can be awkward to use.

Indeed. A feature so awkward that nobody ever uses it  is... useless.

If we wanted Doom RL to be a game designed to extract our tears and rage, designed to exclude everybody but the most demented, cave-dwelling neckbeard from our secret club, we'd be playing Nethack with Chain-Guns, which is demonstrably not the case. The fact that Kornel put in tooltips - freaking tooltips - and the entire graphical version speaks to this, I think. With the difficulty levels and numerous challenge modes Doom RL is a remarkable game in that it scales to many different levels of player competence and difficulty, and that's really neat - but interface pitfalls can and will ruin your day on ITYTD just as easy as on HMP. I've experienced it myself, many times. I wager we all have. We're not asking for the game to compensate for our stupid decisions or Cat-Who-Dances-On-Keyboard pow-wows; nothing can do that, but a few simple, obvious interface improvements that would really cut down on the incidence of rage-quit inducing deaths. The loss of hours of gameplay, with NO SAVES ALLOWED, make this a priority.

And while we're on the topic of improvements: the game's first four levels badly need re-balancing. Most of my runs require five or six deaths/restarts until I get a character who doesn't get RNG raped on the first few levels. After that it's actually easy, unless the stairs dump me next to eleventy-billion formers on the next level. How many Sergeants you see on the first two levels determines if you've enough ammo to do Hell's Arena, which is a pain in the ass when you're gunning for medals or badges, which you'll be doing soon enough if you're a decent Roguelike player. Once you get past the start, Doom RL is lovely fun, but the start is just a bitch.

Quote from: Cotonou
Malice is not a design feature.

Quoted for truth, justice, and the American Way.

Discussion / Re: Pimp my Rocket: Rocket Launcher Builds
« on: March 31, 2012, 10:41 »
But it's a restriction none-the-less...And a requirement.

Just sayin you know! :P

It needed to be said! I mean, the chaingun is pretty bad unless you sink lots of traits into it, then it becomes amazing. Every build has its restrictions/requirements, we can't play with 'em unless we know 'em, for sure.

Quote from: Matt_S
I'm just saying that while I've dissed the small explosion, it was to someone who wanted an emergency weapon.

Indeed; which is why the Missile Launcher exists at all. With a 0.8 fire time and 4-rocket magazine and (most crucially) +10 accuracy it gives any build an easy-to-use, instant 4 rockets on-demand. The uniques/specials/assemblies are actually pretty well balanced when it comes to rockets - the Revenant launcher gives you an awesome ability (detonate rockets on ANY square, great for gibbing corpses, etc,) at the cost of damage and off-screen bombardment; the Napalm Launcher leaves lava tiles, which is as big a pain for you as it is the enemy half the time, and the assemblies/Missile Launcher all favor different builds with different requirements.

Quote from: Creepy
My only problem with a tac launcher is that it's an assembly. I prefer Whiz2 and five mods, which typically beats assemblies in power and versatility; a trio of powermods and a few bulks and/or Reloader along with a rocket box put your reload speed low enough that lack of magazine isn't a problem and you do a lot more damage that way.

The equipment equivalent of a masterless run, indeed. The only reason I don't go for that more often is the difficulty of finding enough mods - the RNG is a harsh mistress, so I rely on her as little as possible.

Rockets <3

Discussion / Re: Pimp my Rocket: Rocket Launcher Builds
« on: March 28, 2012, 22:07 »
This then proceeds to delay your master till late Hell, pretty much meaning that your going for a masterless run.

I, for one, do not understand the stigma against masterless runs. They're not harder, or anything. If you don't have your master, you do have everything said master would straightjacket you out of and/or simply more defensive traits.

Quote from: AlterAsc
So limited to EE builds only.

Well yes, the Tactical Rocket launcher is an EE build. That's the entire point. It's a weapon for those pursuing the Rocket Launcher as a build unto itself.

Quote from: Matt_s
So I do think that, as an emergency mass-killing weapon

That's because it isn't. The Tactical Launcher is a primary weapon, one you can use frequently and often without blowing up absolutely every desperately-needed item and lava barrel in the game. The Missile Launcher was obviously custom designed for people like you; who want rocket power every "now and then."

Discussion / Oh goody, the thread I've been waiting for!
« on: March 28, 2012, 09:19 »
The Rocket Launcher doesn't get enough respect. At all. First MAD run I did, I headed to The Wall, confident in my devastating, armor-piercing shotgun - and almost got killed. When I busted out my [A] - Modded Rocket Launcher, I started kicking tail. Knockback sent them out of sight, and they'd step forward just in time to catch another rocket to the face. Rinse and repeat. I've lost track of the times this has happened to me - situations my build couldn't handle, but the sweet wrath of high-explosives could.

As for Rockets/Rocket Launchers being inferior...

Spoiler: Wall O Text Analysis (click to show/hide)

tl;dr Great thread. The Tactical Launcher is much better then you give it credit for, though, and could easily be the base of a highly-effective build. A suggestion for Tactical Launcher builds: since the Tac launcher doesn't need Reloader, go ahead and take Fin->Fin->Wiz to start with. Since the Shotgun has a fire/reload time of 1.0 each, saving time in either category increases your effective attack speed. Or EE->EE->Int-Int and hope for a Captain on the first few levels, or grab the one that spawns during Hell's Arena to finish the Barons.

Discussion / Re: Defeating the Cyberdemon
« on: March 27, 2012, 20:38 »
MGK requires DM and the only thing DM requires is patience and ammo(3 stacks should be more than enough), nothing else.Dodge, shoot, repeat.Reloading one pistol takes about 1.2s which is less then 1.5s reload of rocket launcher (including 110% speed of Cybie).

Hey, that's a good point - you COULD chip away at Cybie with just one pistol, counting on the faster reload. I honestly never thought of that. Things always got dicey for me when I ran for a pillar for enough cover to dualreload - it gets you close to a wall, which is bad juju what with the rockets.[/quote]

Safe way to reload two pistols is reload and after that dualreload, which removes 2.4 seconds of being vulnerable problem

Dualreload just saves you from pressing "z" then "r" again - it takes the full reload time of both pistols. So I assume you mean, reload one, then sidestep, and reload the other? Heck you could also whack a convenient wounded Imp or something to reload the other gun and get a free attack in, too. 'Course you're still standing around getting shot at for that time, but it's much better then the alternative.

Well, shows what I know about pistol builds, I guess.

Discussion / Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« on: March 25, 2012, 12:37 »
Can you expound on the 'wow?'

Thank you for the formal excuse to gush like a little girl with a new doll.

This build works. The immediate lesson is that Combat Shotguns are a completely different beast then Doubles, and Fin->Fin->Jug is to Combat Shotties as Rel->Rel->Sht is to Doubles. Furthermore, Juggler completely compensates for not having a Combat Shotgun until you find one (I didn't find any till the first level of Deimos.) It's costly in inventory space and time after-the-fact manually reloading, but being able to bust out shotgun after shotgun, instantly, with Juggler really saves your ass on early levels. That's really nice because getting past the first few levels is so often a huge pain-in-the-ass, waiting for the RNG to stop screwing you over till you've got a trait or two under your belt. Even better, Finesse is just as good as Reloader for early-game survival; since the guaranteed shotty on Phobos Entrance has a reload and fire time of 1.0, saving time in either category increases your effective damage output. Also, it gives you access to Whizkid early on as well, in case you stumble across some nice mods. On later levels, I know Juggler will replace Reloader - I found two Combat Shotguns on Deimos 1, giving me 5 extra shells on instantaneous tap when I need 'em.

Secondly, Rocket-Jumping is awesome. The 9.9.3 bug never let me play with it as much as I wanted, but now that I can, it's fantastic. I used it to fly through the hordes of Formers on the hard Chained Court and luckily landed right next to the Arena Master, who went down to my 'zerked Chainsaw with ease. The Hell Knights were pushovers. Most notably, the Lost Souls waiting in the wings on Phobos Anomaly are a real pain in the ass in this version. I figured I had their number this time; hit them with the Hell Staff and followed up with a double-shotgun blast... and yet I was still surrounded. Without a Phase device, I sat there, pondering my fate... and remembered the rocket-jump. Juggler gave me the launcher without suffering a Lost-Soul gangstabbing, and in one turn I blew up most of the Souls, flew all the way to the opposite door, opened it, stepped through, and closed it. Too bad, cacodemons! From there it was child's play to cornershoot the rest down.

Then I took on the Bruiser brothers. I just smacked them with Rockets until one got close to my corner, and I laid into him with the chainsaw, which worked pretty well. Then his brother came up behind him and started circling to attack me as well. 2v1 just wasn't happening... so I insta-switched and rocket-jumped away again, hitting them both with the blast. Then I just picked them off with rockets as they tried to close again.

So far I've gone Marine, Fin->Fin->Jug->Bru->Bad->Bru, which is working well. Since Finesse 2 and Juggler seem to cover all my shotgun-related needs so well, I'm seriously considering taking Berserker, then Vampyre (if I read this right, Vampyre gives +3 HP for any kill, not just ones made in melee,) both of which will mesh well with Badass (esp. another rank of it.) Or I could go with Hellrunner or Nails, I guess, to keep it masterless.

This is on HMP, no less, not a cake difficulty. I'm amazed at how flexible it is.

EDIT: The chainsaw as an instant secondary is great all-around. Many a time have I blasted a Baron point-blank, only to immediately eat an acid blast because the Baron was knocked back a few tiles. It's even worse with Arachnotrons. That's not a problem with the Chainsaw, and once I make it piercing it'll be even better.

Discussion / Re: Defeating the Cyberdemon
« on: March 25, 2012, 12:07 »
Unfortunately the ultimate anti-Cyberdemon build is currently bugged, in that Fireangel doesn't work. You can technically "dodge" all enemies, including Revenant's and Arch-Viles, but since their attacks target the tile next to you - and they always hit that tile - you get caught by splash damage anyways. With Fireangel, that doesn't touch you at all. Earning the
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
is childishly easy with a Fireangel shotty build.

Somehow intuiting the timing of enemy attacks is nigh impossible - even with a scout with a .65 move speed I still end up walking into facefulls of Sergeant buckshot every level - so the easiest way to handle Cybie is to dodge back and forth until he takes a shot. Then you know you've got a few rounds to whale on him until you see him reload his launcher. Then you dodge again till he blows his wad, and resume firing.

Chain-fire builds usually don't have a problem with Cybie, since chain-fire is all about tanking damage while dishing out obscene amounts of pain in a very short time. They typically have a hyperblaster and some plasma for it as well, which helps cut through Cybie's obscene 4 points of armor, as well as putting incredible amounts of pain on in very short time.

But lets talk about your situation: killing Cybie with non-Fireangel shotty builds and pistol builds. Well, those are certainly harder.

First, pistols. Your first problem here (as I've found) is reloading. Gun Kata is absolutely amazing for the free reloads, which is otherwise the fatal Achilles heel of the build. Against Cybie, however, it's utterly useless, which is how many successful Gun Kata AoMr runs have ended bitterly. Your second problem is armor. Armor applies to each incoming projectile separately, so while it only takes the edge off explosions, it really puts the kibosh on rapid-fire attacks - and pistol-builds are rapid-fire. Think about it; you're effectively a manual chaingun. The third problem is ammo.

For reloading, you could face Cybie down with Speedloader Pistols - the mods for it aren't terribly hard to find (sometimes) and if you don't luck out and find some nice Unique pistols, and you don't get Whizkid before Cybie (more likely then not, both of them) you might end up facing Cybie with your early-game Speedloader pistols, and that isn't so bad, considering you'll really need the reload speed. And if you do find Uniques, or make better weapons, it's a good reason to hold onto your Speedloader's for a bit.

Or you could bite the bullet (hurr) and take two ranks in Reloader. But as long as you're taking Reloader... consider passing up Gun Kata completely! Especially if you're having trouble with successful dodging and tend to corner-shoot anyways, you may as well go the full mile. Try a Technician pistol build - the single-pistol master trait concentrates massive firepower into fewer attacks, which will help greatly versus armor and ammo conservation. (Especially if you save a 10mm ammochain for the Cybie fight; free reloads!) Or you could just go for Dualgunner, and dual-wield nasty Advanced assemblies pistols. Technician is vital for this, because you get access to Whizkid immediately, instead of three traits in (two ranks of Finesse, then WK.) This is a simple inventory issue - by the time you get Whizkid with a Scout or Marine, you've been lugging around tons of precious mods, and leaving medpacks, ammo, phase devices, etc behind. With a Technician, you can pick up WK shortly before (or in) Hell's Armory and really clean house. (If you're not in the habit of killing the Shambler, do try if you're in decent shape. The two extra mod packs really help.)

Which brings me to my second suggestion: the energy pistol. An advanced assembly, slightly superior to a normal pistol - but it uses power cells and does plasma damage. Plasma damage halves armor protection, very useful against Cybie, and even better, power cells are often more plentiful then 10mm deeper into Hell. And even with a 0.4 attack speed, the pistol doesn't devour cells the way Plasma Rifles like to. One will help, and if you're lucky enough to assemble two then you can just blaze through Cybie like he isn't there, especially with two ranks of Reloader. Note also that the sweet pistol Uniques almost all have a looong reload time of 2.0 seconds, so Reloader is really important for using them well against bosses. Then there's the Blaster, which is basically a moddable plasma pistol that fires even faster and never, ever needs reloading. Pray to the deity of your choice for that one.

With a Technician dualgunner build you can still dodge by taking two ranks in Hellrunner (very useful for ducking behind corners to reload. Doesn't much help Reloader-less dualgunners because the typical 2.4 sec reload time usually ends with Barons strolling right up to your corner and whaling on you.) Or you can put those ranks into Ironman or Tough as Nails if you prefer.

Now, shotguns. Without Fireangel (allowing you to chip Cybie to death because he can't touch you) your options come down to Army of Darkness or rocket launcher as a secondary, since 8 effective armor vs. shotguns is bad juju. Now the nice thing about the Rocket Launcher; it fits most builds as a secondary weapon with just a mod or two. Launchers like Eagle Eye (for more reliable hits) and Reloader (one-shot and slow to reload.) Most builds will have at least one of those; for shotguns it's 2 ranks in Reloader. If you cleared out The Wall you should have the Missile Launcher, with perfect accuracy and a 5-rocket magazine; that should put some serious hurt on Cybie really quick. If not, slap an Agility Mod onto a Rocket Launcher (effective 10% in hits at max range) and go to town; with two ranks in Reloader you'll pump out rockets just fine. If you plan on lugging a few more stacks of Rockets then a Bulk mod - plus two ranks of Reloader - works miracles for the Rocket Launcher. The occasional miss isn't as devastating because you'll be pumping out rockets faster. The vanilla Rocket Launcher also keeps the Rocket Jump ability, which is very handy if you go with Army of Darkness.

MAD (Master Army of Darkness) makes shotguns completely ignore armor; very powerful. However it also takes away Hellrunner and Finesse, which is really, really harsh. You can't play active-shotgun worth a damn and your ability to dish out damage really fast is lacking, even with Piercing shotguns. Oh, no Advanced assemblies, either. Congrats, you're a corner-shooting hero. On the other hand, armor doesn't exist for you, so you can chip away at Cybie corner-shooting with a Combat Shotty like you're whacking imps on level 3. Unfortunately Cybie doesn't suffer knockback, so he'll be all over you very, very shortly. Now you've got two options, depending on location and situation:

1. Two to Tango. If he's really close, turn on Running and pray you can close to melee range before he blasts you halfway across the arena with a rocket. (If he does, see #2.) Then bust out the biggest, nastiest boomstick you've got, P-modded Double Shotty is preferable. Cybie's melee attack is nasty, but not as nasty as his rockets, especially since his rockets hurt just as much at 10 tiles as they do at 2, but your shotguns drop off fast with range - and when he rockets you, you get knocked back a ways. Then just step in diagonals around him to reload your shotty (or just reload stationary, if that's faster. Check by pressing @ to see stats.) 36 points of completely unmitigated damage each round will rip Cybie apart quick. Or...

2. DARING MUH-REEN ON THE FLY~ING TRAPEEZE~ Exploit the monstrous knockback of Cybie's rockets. This involves not tech-modding armor and taking off your boots if you don't desperately need any move bonus they might have. Also, put on the Phaseshift boots if you're lucky enough to find them. At least some of the time Cybie's attack will send you out of his sight radius... and if it doesn't, swap to your rocket launcher and rocket-jump even further away (your rocket's going to hurt a lot less then his, for sure.) Then just get out your Combat/Tac shotgun and spray buckshot in Cybie's general direction till he catches up to you, rinse, and repeat. (Note rocket-jumping away yourself is preferable to letting Cybie blast you.) With Piercing damage, your chipping will actually work.

And it is chipping - Combat/Tac shotguns will hurt out to range 15 (your vision is only 8 tiles) but you can rack up some pretty impressive damage over time. Key phrase "over time." This is ammo-intensive. If Cybie catches you at close range you might want to take the oppertunity to get a much better kick in with your shotgun before he sends you a-sailing - or if you think you can swap to your rocket launcher before he nails you, let him eat your rocket as you rocket-jump away (enemies nearby take the brunt of that blast.) Be flexible. You could always keep your Tactical boots, tech-mod your armor and rely on two ranks of badass to just slog close to Cybie and kick him in the teeth with your double-shotty, if you think that'll work.

Just my... two dollars. And change. An hour successfully wasted, woop.

Discussion / Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« on: March 25, 2012, 00:28 »
Just got to Demios Lv. 1 with an "Ash" build on HMP.


Discussion / Re: Plasma ammo on Arena?
« on: March 24, 2012, 13:42 »
Please no more fucking plasma rifles.

I have been through Armory few-several times on AoMr and every fucking time I am getting fucking Shotguns, Double Shotguns, Combat Shotguns, Super Shotguns, Plasma Rifles, uniques that do not work with AoMr, of course.
And of course fucking great firestorm mods.

Let the reward be a bit connected to challenge, please.

I laughed out loud, because I know your torment. The first time I completed the Arena on AoMr, I held by breath as I searched for my spoils. What wonders would be granted for this absolute, utter bitch of a challenge? I wasn't hoping for much. A combat pistol would be splendid.

And then I got a power mod and a 10mm ammochain. I nearly put my fist through my computer.

Discussion / Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« on: March 23, 2012, 21:59 »
Iirc that was fixed and now shottyman reloads only one shell for combat/tactical/assault.

Oh, good point. Haven't played a shottyman build in 9.9.6 yet.

Discussion / Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« on: March 23, 2012, 10:08 »
I believe AoD is all about the elephant gun and tactical shotty.

This was my suspicion as well. I scoffed at the Elephant Gun initially because it requires two power mods to do what an unmodded double shotty does already - but I didn't stop to factor that the elephant gun's normal shotgun blast is much better at range, still has the spread to help with Lost Souls and the like, and most vitally armor is only applied twice, not four times. That, and it seemed purpose-built for active-shotgun builds.

I just fiddled with the numbers really quick, and it seems the tactical shotty still comes out on top. With a fire time of 1.0 and a 5-round tube, it puts out 75 damage in 5.0 turns before you have to reload - which you can do with a single move if you've got shottyman. (For sake of argument let's assume your move speed is 1.20, which sounds about right for modded red armor + tactical boots.) That's with an average damage of 15 (according to the wiki.) Now lets look at the elephant gun, assuming you're using your 1.20 move to reload by hopping about. With an average damage of 22 and fire speed of 1.0 you can dish out 88 points of damage... in 8.8 seconds. 1.0 to fire, 1.20 to move and reload. If you fire three times you average 66 damage, time cost: 6.6 seconds. Clearly the Elephant Gun would shine for an active shottyman, but passive...?

I suppose you could try to factor in the dodge chance you'd get from moving, but considering how lackluster active defense seems to be (without Fireangel) on dedicated builds, I doubt our passive shottyman will do much better - and moving makes using tactical defense a lot harder, because sometimes you don't have enough cover to juke about like that.

Even simple NORMAL shotgun with both will shine better than elephant with AoD. IMHO.

Certainly nothing to laugh at, for sure. Especially a shotty with a single mod.

I'm going to try out some masterless "Ash" builds when I get home, though. I wanted to do that for some time, though this thread made me give it high priority =)

Edit: Hmm.. I'm thinking Juggler, Shottyman, Brute, Badass and Scavenger. Hehe... it may be bad... but it feels gooood.

"Masterless" is the key term here; it really opens up some potential... and mostly with the chainsaw. Shotguns big problem is armored enemies in late-game and shell scarcity; problems which MAD should address, but as discussed, doesn't.

Neither are problems for the chainsaw. Especially for the odd armored enemy that doesn't want to die - since that requires double-shotty blitzkrieg anyways, you may as well whip out the C-C-CHAINSAW and go to town. A piercing chainsaw is easy to make and does horrible, horrible things to anything you can get close to... and with Juggler, you can use rocket-jumps to close with thine foe very, very quickly. And leave again, if need be. I really need to try that!

I need to knock off a few Silver badges, which means winning a Challenge game or two. It wounds my pride to play on HNTR, AoMr is an RNG crap-shoot for the first five levels (and even then I don't know how to handle the new, improved Lost Souls and Pain Elementals,) and Fireangel is bugged... which leaves me no palatable options at this point. A crying shame AoSg disallows the chainsaw. It'd fit the spirit of the challenge so well. Real Man's Weapons. Knives, too.

Discussion / Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« on: March 23, 2012, 00:28 »
AoD is better than every other shotgun build. Fireangel doesn't work.

Wining by fiat of being the only real "shotgun" build that currently isn't bugged isn't much of a win in my book.

AoD gives you great passive defense, great active defense,

What? It blocks Hellrunner, which is the required trait for active defense. And even with tactical boots, you're going to need Red armor to survive on HMP and up. It doesn't much matter anyways, because active defense is, in my experience, a big, bad, horrible joke - unless, of course, you're using Fireangel.

Fireangel, after all, lets you dodge Arch-Viles and Revenants. Arch-Viles and Revenants. With Fireangel, killing the Cyberdemon without taking damage is a cinch. Especially since it requires Dodgemaster, and if you're lucky the Arch-Vile or Revenant's attack is the "first" one in the round (usually the Vile.) And it undoes one of the major failings of active defense; the fact that splash damage from shots hitting walls usually nails you anyway. It also makes you effectively immune to Mancubi.

Given all that, the fact my shotties bounce off enemies doesn't faze me in the slightest. Actually getting up in their face and unloading a double shotgun - or a focused double shotgun - or knocking them back into lava and laughing like a maniac - or just switching to my accuracy-modded rocket launcher - is pretty easy. Especially when you factor in Finesse 2 and a tactical shotgun, all the armor in the world can't save thine enemies. (The beauty of shotgun builds using rocket-launchers for back up is 2 ranks of Reloader, slap a few Agility mods on it and hey, presto. Especially with Juggler.) Hellrunner/Dodgemaster is merely for reaching corners or getting out of bad situations, which the RNG and/or monsters will put you in frequently without you having a single thing to say about it. As Noir seemingly discovered, shotguns never kill fast enough at max range to allow real run-and-gun tactics, but Fireangel keeps you safe from a vast amount of damage that would otherwise hit you as you flee for your corners or undertake the occasional double-rush. (Too bad it's bugged in the current version, we'll just have to wait.)

You'd think that AoD would be the "stand and deliver!" build, what with the focus on standing still and dishing out massive shotgun damage that ignores armor, but the requirements of AoD basically require you to suck at everything. Blocking Finesse is harsh, harsh, harsh. It directly removes your ability to "stand and deliver." If you can't avoid damage, then you had best be dishing it out really fast. As in, fast enough to stand toe-to-toe with a few barons on HMP and come out on top. And even with piercing damage, without Finesse, that just ain't happening, chum. Without Finesse, you'll never get Whizkid, either, so better armors and really nasty shotguns are permanently out of your reach. The armor is especially bad, since passive defense is so reliant on it.

Tried to clear the Wall recently with a passive shotty build. I'd just gotten AoD, figured, hey, time to kick Barons in the face. Ended up switching to my accuracy-modded rocket launcher quite soon, because AoD just wasn't cutting it on my shotgun. Eventually I got tired of playing peek-a-boo, so I switched to Running and sprinted to the other side of the wall, shooting a crowd of 4-5 barons with my double shotty, moving to dodge/reload, and firing again. It eventually worked... eventually. On Barons already softened up by blind rocket bombardment. And my big bad tough armored dude was still at 32% health by the time that was done - as one might expect from a heavy armored dude without Hellrunner. And this was with tac boots, no less.

In short, the supposed offensive power of AoD just can't offset the lack of survivability. The only advantage is ammo efficiency for later levels, but with the addition of shell boxes to the game, even that is lessened.

I want to love AoD. I really do. But several shotgun/chainsaw wielding badasses named "Ash" have died in Hell to no avail trying to use that useless trait tree. Clearly I'm doing it wrong, and if you could educate me in the error of my ways, I'd adore you forever.

Seriously. What am I missing, here?

Discussion / Re: Let's take on the Mortuary!
« on: March 19, 2012, 09:08 »
Question: is there a way to gib a corpse on the ground without any monsters nearby, other than using skulls?

Rocket Jumps. You take little damage and go a-flying like that DARING young man on the FLYING trapeze~ but everybody around you is not so fortunate.

On that note, Rocket Jumping is absolutely amazing in the Mortuary. For starters, you can gib corpses left and right with rocket jumps - it's the only way to make a rocket explode "on the floor." Second, that frequent situation where you've got a pack of nasties close together, that really beg for a rocket... but they're too close? Rocket Jump. You hit them with a rocket AND remove yourself from harms way quite quickly.

And then there's the mobility bonus. In one turn (or less) you can relocate a distance equal to your sight radius or more (if you've got the phase-boots, it's a great way to exploit their knockback increase.) This lets you flee or attack; since you can use Rocket Jumps to get close to those thrice-cursed Arch-Viles and feed them a double shotty blast, or use it to get out of dodge after killing one, if his back of friends are too large to handle up-close. By rocket-jumping around, you can gib corpses, hurt enemies, flee or attack as needed, all while taking less damage then you would by standing still and getting shot by two Arachnotrons, a Former Commando and a Baron of Hell or two.

It's the best argument to be made for the standard rocket launcher and its associated assemblies; now that the bugged jumping of Ver. 9.9.3. is behind us. Revenant's Launcher is fine, Missile Launcher is fun, but neither can rocket-jump. I ended up in the Lava Pits with a single EnviroSuit once, and after cursing myself for overconfidence, realized I could rocket-jump over the lava in a jiffy. I cleared the level with no problems. Setting off a 4-radius explosion in your enemies faces while simultaneously surfing the fireball out of the room in a split-second is the best NOPE option ever conceived.

Also, it's plain fun. I suspect rocket jumping has been sorely overlooked.

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