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Author Topic: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!  (Read 35580 times)

Blade

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Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« on: July 13, 2007, 13:51 »

After a year of work Glowie have released new version of Frozen Depth roguelike. It was second roguelike that i have played(right after DooMRL)). I like this game because it have really "cool" atmosphere, and very interesting gameplay system. I know that it's only mine opinion, but i like to listen to The Cure when playing it, this music fits this game.))
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DisaffectedBeta

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Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2007, 11:24 »

I just played through it.  Got quite far before some rather evil enemy buried me in stuffed animals (not really, but sorta).  I like its straightforwardness.  Minimal keypresses to memorize, but still a good number of dungeon features.

The site seems to be down at the moment; was going to ask the designer a few questions...

I will say I probably would behead the sages if I could.  They're a bit hypercapitalist for my taste :)
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Blade

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Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2007, 13:01 »

One more thing: this game was won without savescumming only 1 time ever.)) I have won it only WITH savescumming just to see, what will be in the end. Very funny thing happens when you kill final boss on dlvl 50.))

I'm very unlucky with sages. I sometimes travel 10-20 levels without finding any sage or Goddess shrine. Anyway, imho they are not sages, no wise man will be standing still and buying used weapons and armors deep in the frozen caves.))
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DisaffectedBeta

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Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2007, 16:14 »

OK, thank you for mentioning that with sages.  The first, like, three times I played, I kept running into sages early on.  One time twice in three levels, and so on my next game I gleefully stored a ton of goods waiting to unload them on the sage I'd see...  and I never saw one..  I'm like, I don't know how many levels down and I haven't seen one yet.

They may yet be sages, they seem unhindered by cold (or heat or monsters).  Maybe they've achieved enlightment, but the cost is that they have to sit around, torturing adventurers with high prices.

And yes, after dying too often, I've decided to savescum :)  The only time I don't like to savescum is in the not-technically-roguelike Dwarf Fortress, since it still sorta contributes to the world when you die, and Doom, just because I'm hardheaded.  Any roguelike that will have your old, dead characters somehow affect the world later always gets a plus in my book (like the old nethack, if I recall correctly).

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Rabiat

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Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2007, 01:51 »

Quote from: Blade
I like this game because it have really "cool" atmosphere, and very interesting gameplay system.

I just did a couple of test runs and really enjoyed it. The cold setting is done very nicely, perhaps with the exception of some monsters that don't really fit the atmosphere. I'd prefer to see only cold-themed monsters in this setting.

I was impressed by the equipment system. You can wear armour for defense as well as clothing to keep you warm, which adds a credible dimension to inventory management. Also, the equipment screen will warn you if there is an item in the inventory for an equipment slot, by marking the slot with an asterisk. Switching items in slots is easy and straightforward. Having a single 'use' item command in stead of 'eat', 'read', 'quaff', 'zap' etc. makes sense, although scrolling through the entire inventory every time is a bit of a hassle.

Eating food just to keep warm seems kind of artificial, but it works. I'm not a big fan of satiation in roguelikes anyway.

Learning new skills seems to require quite a bit of experience. I haven't had the opportunity to learn a single skill in any test run so far.

Quote from: DisaffectedBeta
I will say I probably would behead the sages if I could.  They're a bit hypercapitalist for my taste :)

After playing a dwarf fighter a couple of levels, bashing monsters with a cursed bow stuck to his hands, not being able to afford an uncursing spell is pretty frustrating. That sage was so lucky my wand of frostbolt ran out of charges. :)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2007, 03:04 by Rabiat »
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DisaffectedBeta

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Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2007, 06:51 »

You had the cursed bow thing too?  It was actually a cursed bow incident that lead me to scumming!  I was a human warrior, kicking butt, then I tried out my fancy new bow.  Thing for me was, I never saw a sage.  I throwing every throwable weapon, and expending my few arrows, then zapping things with wands, often teleporting myself away when I got surrounded.  Worked, as far as tactics goes, until attrition killed me.

I agree about the monsters, although I wouldn't mind the fire monsters as things that generate their own heat and thus are more able to survive cold climate.  I just get the usual nethack feeling: "why are all these cute little animals zombying toward me?"

Like you, Rabiat, I'm digging the single use command instead of dealing with all those context-specific verbs, and the clothing dimension to keeping warm.  I wish there was a way to combine the equipment screen, so sorting through the best stuff while getting rid of excess baggage didn't take hopping between the two screens to do it.

Skills are nice once you figure them out.  At first I felt that it was a bit of a hassle to activate the non-active skills every time but I'm used to it now and it's helped in tight situations.  Actually, doesn't every character start with a single skill already?  That'll let you practice using them.

If the sage's prices were a bit lower, I wouldn't mind so much that they went up.

I was going to have a productive day, but now I think I'll play a few more levels of this game...
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Blade

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Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2007, 08:30 »

I agree about the monsters, although I wouldn't mind the fire monsters as things that generate their own heat and thus are more able to survive cold climate.  I just get the usual nethack feeling: "why are all these cute little animals zombying toward me?"

On the official site is written that "only two elements survive in the depths: it's the home of the cold creatures and the extremely hot creatures can keep themselves alive there" so it explains a little, why they are there.))

Skills are nice once you figure them out.  At first I felt that it was a bit of a hassle to activate the non-active skills every time but I'm used to it now and it's helped in tight situations.  Actually, doesn't every character start with a single skill already?  That'll let you practice using them.

For each starting training that you can choose there are one starting skill. In the manual some tips are written, so it can be quite useful to read it.))
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Rabiat

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Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2007, 01:03 »

Quote from: DisaffectedBeta
Like you, Rabiat, I'm digging the single use command instead of dealing with all those context-specific verbs, and the clothing dimension to keeping warm.  I wish there was a way to combine the equipment screen, so sorting through the best stuff while getting rid of excess baggage didn't take hopping between the two screens to do it.

One thing I particularly liked about the equipment screen (and forgot to mention) is that it will mark slots with an asterisk not only if a suitable item is available, but also if there is a better item for that slot in your inventory. Being a noob at the game I was carrying around lots of extra clothing in my inventory, which I don't think is necessary. I guess I'll try the usual 'inventory purge' I use in many roguelikes: drop everything except your equipment, then pick up the useful stuff.

Quote
Skills are nice once you figure them out.  At first I felt that it was a bit of a hassle to activate the non-active skills every time but I'm used to it now and it's helped in tight situations.  Actually, doesn't every character start with a single skill already?  That'll let you practice using them.

I understand the way skills work, but I was surprised how much experience it takes to finally learn a new one after the initial skill. My last character finally reached the point where his stats meet the minimum requirements for more than half of the skills listed (which happened fairly quickly). I guess I expected to see fewer skills becoming available more regularly, but I can appreciate the initial threshold before your character gains a second skill.

Edit: also, I got the hang of tactics, or fighting styles. I haven't toyed around with it enough to see a significant advantage for every tactic, but by now I escaped death twice with 1HP left by fleeing in defensive mode. :)
« Last Edit: July 16, 2007, 01:12 by Rabiat »
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DisaffectedBeta

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Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2007, 03:12 »

Yeah, the asterisk thing is nice, although sometimes it's a bit misleading.  If there's a higher class of item, but you have a blessed item of a lower class, sometimes the blessed item has the same statistics.  So, while the class of the item gets it the asterisk, you really don't need to change (and risk getting cursed).

Can you pick things up piecemeal when they're in a ground stack?  I haven't figured out how yet.

My skill availability ups slowly.  I guess because I tend to concentrate on a few stats instead of spreading it out, so I get the stereotypical skills for my class instead of having them all increase. 

I keep forgetting about the tactics, but they do make a difference when I do use them.  Glad they've been so effective for you.  I'll have to remember to use them when things look bad.  I did use it once on the second boss to escape a big cloud of enemies, and it worked to a point...
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Rabiat

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Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2007, 12:55 »

Quote from: DisaffectedBeta
Can you pick things up piecemeal when they're in a ground stack?  I haven't figured out how yet.

Move over the item stack, press comma, then select the items you want to pick up using the space bar, and press z. I don't think it's possible to pick up e.g. 1 out of a stack of 3 identical items, though.

Note there's a limit of 20 different items on the same tile, stackable items of the same type not included. You'll probably need more than one tile to drop your entire inventory.

Quote from: DisaffectedBeta
My skill availability ups slowly.  I guess because I tend to concentrate on a few stats instead of spreading it out, so I get the stereotypical skills for my class instead of having them all increase.

That must be the difference. I tend to concentrate on evenly distributed stats, especially when I'm new at a game and haven't tried different classes yet.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2007, 13:06 by Rabiat »
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Glowie

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Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2007, 04:06 »

Thanks for the positive comments guys. It has been interesting to watch as new players discuss about various aspects of the game. I'll comment a few things here and there, feel free to ask anything if you have a question.

I know that it's only mine opinion, but i like to listen to The Cure when playing it, this music fits this game.))

I like to listen to power metal while playtesting it.

One more thing: this game was won without savescumming only 1 time ever.)) I have won it only WITH savescumming just to see, what will be in the end. Very funny thing happens when you kill final boss on dlvl 50.))

I'm very unlucky with sages. I sometimes travel 10-20 levels without finding any sage or Goddess shrine. Anyway, imho they are not sages, no wise man will be standing still and buying used weapons and armors deep in the frozen caves.))

Save scumming is evil, Blade! Just don't spoil the ending.

About the sages, many of you seem to complain either about the rarity or the costs. I can assure you that the costs are rather balanced, you just have to sell all useless items and spend the money wisely. It's true that you don't always find a sage in levels 1-10, but if you don't, you usually find an altar, which is enough to keep you alive till you find a sage in 10-20. I won't comment a lot on the "capitalist" attitude of sages, I'll just say that I didn't come up with a better name and that gameplay goes over realism. ;)

I just did a couple of test runs and really enjoyed it. The cold setting is done very nicely, perhaps with the exception of some monsters that don't really fit the atmosphere. I'd prefer to see only cold-themed monsters in this setting.

I would prefer only cold-themed monsters, heat-themed monsters and those that can survive there with, for example, clothing, but it's rather difficult to create that many different, but interesting monsters and try to get them diverse enough without breaking the theme of the monster. I've been changing the monster names and special skills in every version so far, trying to get a bit better atmosphere every time, but this change requires a lot of time.

Learning new skills seems to require quite a bit of experience. I haven't had the opportunity to learn a single skill in any test run so far.

Learning skills quickly requires planning. If you check the desired skill's requirements before starting the game, you can get it very quickly, though that means you have to pick a bit less useful stats as well.

After playing a dwarf fighter a couple of levels, bashing monsters with a cursed bow stuck to his hands, not being able to afford an uncursing spell is pretty frustrating. That sage was so lucky my wand of frostbolt ran out of charges. :)

Dwarven fighters don't use bows. ;)

You had the cursed bow thing too?  It was actually a cursed bow incident that lead me to scumming!

Be strong and don't scum, that way you'll learn faster how to stay alive in the depths.

Being a noob at the game I was carrying around lots of extra clothing in my inventory, which I don't think is necessary.

Carrying extra equipment is far from useless, if your current equipment breaks and you don't have anything to replace it, you're in trouble deeper in the game. Also, you should sell all extra stuff to get as much money as possible.

Yeah, the asterisk thing is nice, although sometimes it's a bit misleading.  If there's a higher class of item, but you have a blessed item of a lower class, sometimes the blessed item has the same statistics.  So, while the class of the item gets it the asterisk, you really don't need to change (and risk getting cursed).

Can you pick things up piecemeal when they're in a ground stack?  I haven't figured out how yet.

Yeah, the asterisk thing indeed doesn't take into account the B/C/U statuses of the items, so you may want to use blessed items a bit longer than you normally would.

You can't pick up only 1 item from a stack, but you can drop them one by one.


Thanks for playing and commenting guys! I appreciate all comments. And thank you Blade for creating this thread. ;)
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Rabiat

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Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2007, 05:04 »

Hey, Glowie. Great job at the game. And thanks for the gameplay advice; I'll try and put it to good use. :)

Quote
About the sages, many of you seem to complain either about the rarity or the costs. (...) I won't comment a lot on the "capitalist" attitude of sages, I'll just say that I didn't come up with a better name and that gameplay goes over realism. ;)

I don't think there's a problem with their rarity; sages shouldn't occur too frequently. But I must admit I expected a somewhat more samaritan attitude from a sage. ;) Their behaviour and function looks more like that of a merchant.

Quote
I would prefer only cold-themed monsters, heat-themed monsters and those that can survive there with, for example, clothing, but it's rather difficult to create that many different, but interesting monsters and try to get them diverse enough without breaking the theme of the monster. I've been changing the monster names and special skills in every version so far, trying to get a bit better atmosphere every time, but this change requires a lot of time.

After Blade pointed out the explanation on the FD web site, I understand your considerations. There's still some monsters that bug me though. The walking bomb for example seems out of place.

Quote
Dwarven fighters don't use bows. ;)

Picking up a cursed one served me right, then. :) Anyway, it was a nice exercise. The char managed to survive long enough to lift the curse, and ended up getting blasted by a &.

Since you're here: I noticed something strange, which might or might not be a bug. I was fighting a snow(?) crocodile, and was immobilized by its attack. After I killed it, I remained immobilized for some 10-15 turns. I expected to be released from its grip as soon as I killed it. Is this supposed to happen?
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DisaffectedBeta

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Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2007, 05:35 »

You can imagine a walking bomb as not literally a walking bomb, but like a spherical, fat little grinning creature with fiery oils in its belly that it needs to keep warm in the depths.  Usually other predators stay away from it because of its foul odor and tendency to explode, (and it tastes bad even if you do survive the blast), but the adventurer doesn't have the luxury of ignoring it.  When you do kill it, its body ruptures, spreading the fiery oil in a burning burst around it.

This is the image I sorta have in mind (after coming up with the idea above):

http://www.dslextreme.com/users/wlee/olsz/eppain.jpg

@ - sage says (be wise, stock up on arrows while you can, just in case you need to pop a bomb at a distance!  Arrows on sale now!)

As far as the crocodile:

Even if it's dead, maybe its mouth is still around your leg.  It has a death grip on you and you have to pry its mouth open before you can get away.

I can come up with other explanations, although I think I could just give you alternate names and such for some of the monsters.  I mean, there's intrinsic humor in being chomped on by angry caribou, but I think your game could have its own, unique creatures too, with a little flavor text about them.  Just ask me in a private message if you want a hand with any of that.

Is it possible to throw potions?
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Glowie

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Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2007, 14:25 »

But I must admit I expected a somewhat more samaritan attitude from a sage. ;)

Hey, it's not easy to make a living when you're immobilized deep in a frozen cave complex. ;)

Since you're here: I noticed something strange, which might or might not be a bug. I was fighting a snow(?) crocodile, and was immobilized by its attack. After I killed it, I remained immobilized for some 10-15 turns. I expected to be released from its grip as soon as I killed it. Is this supposed to happen?

It is supposed to happen, and DisaffectedBeta's explanation is exactly what I was thinking while creating it. Though the more technical explanation is that I don't know whether a monster or an event immobilized the player, so I can't remove the ailment after the monster is killed. Of course I could do this, but I was too lazy since I was able to make an explanation for the current way and I had more important things to improve.

Quote from: DisaffectedBeta
Is it possible to throw potions?

There is one potion that is throwable (you throw it by using it), but you have to identify it first, otherwise the poor character tries to drink the potion.

And about those descriptions. I thought about this when I started creating the monsters, but in the end I decided that it takes too long to write a description for 150 monsters. The descriptions would of course increase atmosphere and explain some of the special skills a bit better. Also descriptions would allow stranger names for monsters... But for now I think I'll just rename monsters when I can. Though I loved your description of the walking bomb. :)
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DisaffectedBeta

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Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2007, 07:48 »

I think your simple use mechanic has a lot of potential.  Since you just came out with your newest version I doubt you want to just dive back in and start creating new content, but the fact that an item's single-use changes means you can do that with other things, like a wand that turns out to be a peppery piece of beef jerky or something :)

Sorry.

One thing you could do with potions is just have them act like wands, that way if you're afraid of drinking them you can throw them, which means you may accidentally benefit the monster you're throwing it at, but it might also encourage the introduction of more harmful potions.

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