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Author Topic: Weapon/Trait Overhaul  (Read 12068 times)

007bistromath

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Weapon/Trait Overhaul
« on: September 25, 2007, 15:50 »

Hi. I'm new to the forum, but there's a snowball's chance in hell Kornel remembers my name because I emailed him like... a friggin' year ago with some suggestions. (Seriously, it was before the challenges or the player info or the trait prereqs. Old.) He told me to post them here, but I never got around to it. I figure this time I should do it right in the first place.

The new DoomRL is definitely sweet, very obviously an improvement over last time I played with it. (Though it seems much harder now. >_<) There are some things that I think need a bit more work though, primarily with traits. First though, a little weapons gripe: I hated the shotgun then, and I hate it now. Aside from the fact that it's kind of silly to have a weapon that's useless by level two unless you roll very poorly, it just seems weird to have three versions of it. Now, I sort of understand why it's like that, because it's supposed to parallel the progression of the other weapons. The trouble is that it's not really any good, it's not different enough from the other shotguns to be any fun (especially if you get Shottyman, then you basically carry around four fewer shells) and to top it all off, the progression for precision and splash weaponry is made uneven. P->C->PR, SG->CS->DS->RL->BFG. See what I mean? I think there should be another step in the precision weapons line. I suggest a plasma pistol, since you start getting plasma ammo well before you can actually use it, particularly if you take the red stairs. I like either 4d3 or 1d10, not sure which winds up giving the better balance.

That brings up another problem, that the split between the two classes of weaponry makes you do weird things with traits. Now most of the traits are decent enough, but the big bonuses of the specialist traits like Shottyman or Intuition just make the incremental bonuses of the other traits seem flat. Finesse, Ironman, Hellrunner, and Son of a Bitch basically exist to give you more time to find out whether or not you're going to pick up a double shotgun before it's time to run down EE->Int with your chaingun. This is made even worse by the fact that there are some traits you just don't touch outside of challenges; Son of a Gun is just no replacement for EE->Int unless you need Dualgunner to get through AoM, and I don't even need to mention the melee stuff.

The best fix for this is to restructure the traits with this specialization scheme in mind from the beginning. Have general traits unlock options for improvement with melee, precision, or splash, and those options in turn unlock further improvements for specific weapon classes. It seems inevitable to me that this come with some degree of power creep, since some of the options as they currently exist are subpar anyway. If it's that big a deal, just buff the monsters. :p

Intuition1 (as is) unlocks precision tree
Eagle Eye (combine with Cateye, cap 2 or 3) unlocks pistol and auto branches
Gun Kata (Dualgunner + SoaG, cap 2, first level gives move-fire,2 second level gives move-reload on empty mag)
Bullet Hose (shots per action for CG/PR increased to 10, mags doubled)

Son of a Bitch (die type and knockback +1, cap 2) unlocks splash tree
Reloader (reload time halved, cap 2) unlocks shotgun and explosive branches
Shottyman (number of dice +1, move reload, cap 1)
Demoman (explosion radius and number of dice +1, cap 1 or 2)

Hellrunner (speed/dodge +25%, cap 3) unlocks melee tree3
Tough as Nails (armor +1, health +10, cap 3) unlocks damage and stealth branches
Berserker (combine with Brute, cap 3)
Ninja (monster sight radius halved, gain extra attack from prepared slot, cap 1)

This all probably seems a bit overpowered, but I think that's curable in a rather simple fashion: get rid of weapon mods, which are already kind of annoying to use anyway. You either get your target weapon early enough to spec in it or you don't. Even if it does have some power creep, it is at least much more balanced than the current model, which I think is the most important part.

NOTES
1Why is Intuition before Eagle Eye? Because EE is useless to shotgunners, and not really of interest to demoguys either. The general idea with this tree structure was to place the generalist traits at the root.

2Yeah, that's right, move-fire. Basically with every step, your character asks for a target whenever one is in sight. Might seem like a bit much, but remember that you're restricted to a pair of pistols, here.

3The entire melee tree is a huge buff. That's okay as far as I'm concerned. The AoB challenge is damn near unplayable in its current form. I've never survived long enough to get to the Chained Court! :(
« Last Edit: September 25, 2007, 16:15 by 007bistromath »
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Potman

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Re: Weapon/Trait Overhaul
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2007, 23:56 »

Totally agree with shotguns, and I reckon they need a serious power boost. The new Hellrunner is totally overpowered, and Inituition being available right away means that I can snipe enemies outside my range by level 3. Also if I need two Int points before getting to the Eagle Eye, and two of that before Gun Kata, and all the weapon mods are removed, then you've just made SoaG nigh impossible.

Also AoB isn't impossible: I've beaten it three times. It's getting to Chained Court that's the hard part. Your melee traits make it kinda too easy after that point. Ninja is not only ridiculously overpowered but also ridiculously un-Doomish. We've been discussing this stealth stuff many times over on these forums, and most of them end with "You're not supposed to sneak around in Doom". At the very least Ninja and Berserker should close each other out.
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007bistromath

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Re: Weapon/Trait Overhaul
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2007, 00:30 »

The new Hellrunner: really? The one we already have always seemed kind of underpowered to me. I mean, it's not terrible, but it's this little incremental chip that just does not at all stand equal to any of the bigger bonuses.

Intuition: It is kind of a big move, but there were several reasons for it. For one thing, I can see melee or splash characters dipping into it for the lever sense. That's an important enough ability that I think you should be able to do that without taking two ranks of "I'm a cripple but I can see real good" first. I don't think that getting Int3 a little earlier will really break things that much. It'll take some of the pressure off the levels close to The Wall, but considering that's all you've got by that point (i.e. no EE) it's not that big of a boost anymore.

Gun Kata: I think you may have misunderstood what I was going for there. Dualgunner and SoaG are not prereqs for Gun Kata. Gun Kata takes the place of both of them by combining their effects. With that, as well as the move-fire and move-reload, you really shouldn't need any mods to finish AoM. Besides that, removing mods isn't really necessary to this plan, it just seems like a simple way to both balance things and make trait/weapon interaction a little more manageable. If people still want them in there, you can just rebalance by making the monsters tougher. It's not hard.

Ninja: No, you're not supposed to sneak around in Doom, but you also aren't supposed to try to get in the Cyberdemon's face without IDDQD. It still might be better to put in something different, though. If you've got any ideas for what to do with that one, since I really don't think dual-wielding is enough by itself, cough 'em up.
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Potman

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Re: Weapon/Trait Overhaul
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2007, 01:19 »

The new Hellrunner: really? The one we already have always seemed kind of underpowered to me. I mean, it's not terrible, but it's this little incremental chip that just does not at all stand equal to any of the bigger bonuses.

But 25% is on the other end of the scale, being almost as powerful as three old Hellrunners. 15% would be much better.

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Gun Kata: I think you may have misunderstood what I was going for there. Dualgunner and SoaG are not prereqs for Gun Kata. Gun Kata takes the place of both of them by combining their effects. With that, as well as the move-fire and move-reload, you really shouldn't need any mods to finish AoM. Besides that, removing mods isn't really necessary to this plan, it just seems like a simple way to both balance things and make trait/weapon interaction a little more manageable. If people still want them in there, you can just rebalance by making the monsters tougher. It's not hard.

I realized what you were doing there, but what I meant is that you now get to wield two guns on level five, as compared on level three like before. Plus you won't get that nice gun damage before it anymore, although you'll get some accuracy.

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Ninja: No, you're not supposed to sneak around in Doom, but you also aren't supposed to try to get in the Cyberdemon's face without IDDQD. It still might be better to put in something different, though. If you've got any ideas for what to do with that one, since I really don't think dual-wielding is enough by itself, cough 'em up.

Halving the enemy sight range is way too much. At max, it should be reduced by 3 or something. And again, it should be uncompatible with Berserker and the other way around, if only because I can't see an insane bloodthirsty marine creeping around on his toes like some cowardly wuss.
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007bistromath

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Re: Weapon/Trait Overhaul
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2007, 02:05 »

But 25% is on the other end of the scale, being almost as powerful as three old Hellrunners. 15% would be much better.
Yeah, that doesn't sound too bad. I think I can agree with that.
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I realized what you were doing there, but what I meant is that you now get to wield two guns on level five, as compared on level three like before. Plus you won't get that nice gun damage before it anymore, although you'll get some accuracy.
I can see how not having the extra damage might be troublesome, but there's one thing you're not taking into account: I never said that these things required two levels of their prereq to be unlocked. I know that's pretty much the standard number right now, but I actually envisioned this as the first level of most or all of these unlocking the next level of the tree. I guess I should've said that before. @_@
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Halving the enemy sight range is way too much. At max, it should be reduced by 3 or something. And again, it should be uncompatible with Berserker and the other way around, if only because I can't see an insane bloodthirsty marine creeping around on his toes like some cowardly wuss.
Think less viking and more Rambo. The guy who sneaks can still bust a guy down to his component materials when he gets up close and personal.
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Potman

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Re: Weapon/Trait Overhaul
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2007, 03:32 »

I can see how not having the extra damage might be troublesome, but there's one thing you're not taking into account: I never said that these things required two levels of their prereq to be unlocked. I know that's pretty much the standard number right now, but I actually envisioned this as the first level of most or all of these unlocking the next level of the tree. I guess I should've said that before. @_@

Yeah you should've said that before, because otherwise I automatically concluded that they required 2 points.

I reckon that if you needed one Inituition to get Eagle Eye, one EE to get Gun Kata, and two to get Bullet Hose, it'd work pretty well. One SoaB would be enough to get Reloader, one Reloader to Shottyman, and two Reloaders to Demoman. One Hellrunner for TaN, one TaN for Berserker, and three Hellrunners for Ninja.

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Think less viking and more Rambo. The guy who sneaks can still bust a guy down to his component materials when he gets up close and personal.

You could make Berserker only work on Berserk mode and Ninja only on Cautious mode. Then they'd both work together pretty well without being broken.
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007bistromath

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Re: Weapon/Trait Overhaul
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2007, 12:22 »

I'm still not keen on the idea of splitting up the melee tree like that. Like I said, the main thing I want out of ninja is dual-wielding, and I think you should be able to use that with Berserker. If you have to replace the stealth with something else to preserve flavor and/or balance, then that's the better option.
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007bistromath

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Re: Weapon/Trait Overhaul
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2007, 05:38 »

One thing I've been kind of kicking around.

We make lots of chatter about how stealth is undoomish, but what do you think the "long wait" key is? Doom actually had an item that gave you near-invisibility, but I sure as hell can't think of any time while playing it that I lied in wait for anything. It was all about taking the fight to the enemy. On that note, I support items, traits, or other mechanics that give the player some limited stealth because it encourages more aggressive, Doom-like play.
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Const

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Re: Weapon/Trait Overhaul
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2007, 12:23 »

I don't think that getting Int3 a little earlier will really break things that much.

Not only Intuition*3, but also all combinations with Intuition.
For example, powerful stealth combination intuition*3+Hellrunner.
In current version, it requires CL8. It's a much - one of my records says that I die on HMP on dungeon level 18 with only CL7. All my victories on medium was on CL9 - only 1 more than CL8.
In your version, it requires CL6. And CL6 must be much earlier than CL8.

Using termin "damage dice" in perks IMHO also isn't good.
Only 12 perks is bad - in current version, there are 18 perks.
Only 3 perks at start is bad - it decreases game replayability.
No Brute at the beginning AoB is bad - AoB already hard at start.
About "demolition" perk - it isn't good perk. Current splash radius already big; if it increases, it means that  the player more hit himself and more destroy good items. It's VERY bad.
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Silhar

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Re: Weapon/Trait Overhaul
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2007, 12:36 »

Personally I don't like "skill trees" idea. It's a hardcore fight for survival in hell, not a gardening lesson !
IMHO, trees destroy many possibilities to "make" your marine, which is a big part of fun in DoomRL...

007bistromath

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Re: Weapon/Trait Overhaul
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2007, 12:43 »

I've hit CL6 enough times to figure out it's right around 13-15. I often have Intuition maxed and am carrying around a bunch of cool stuff, and the area is still barely survivable. Having a bit extra won't break the game, though my initial number for Hellrunner is a bit much. 15% like Potman said is better.
Using termin "damage dice" in perks IMHO also isn't good.
What?
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Only 12 perks is bad - in current version, there are 18 perks.
I don't see why. That they work and interact well is much more important than having alot of them.
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Only 3 perks at start is bad - it decreases game replayability.
That is most certainly not true. Replayability is already barely affected by traits at all. There are only a few that it makes any sense to take at the beginning of the game, because of the power of the ones that lie at the end of the chains. This proposition will increase replayability by making specialization more intuitive and somewhat more flexible. People will be encouraged to experiment with chains they might not necessarily use for a while because of what they pick up, but it won't kill them because most of what they buy will provide some use regardless of equipment.
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No Brute at the beginning AoB is bad - AoB already hard at start.
A higher Hellrunner and the new TaN should make survival to CL3, when you have the choice of the Brute effect or dual wield, about as doable as getting to CL3 in AoB currently is, if not a bit moreso.
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About "demolition" perk - it isn't good perk. Current splash radius already big; if it increases, it means that  the player more hit himself and more destroy good items. It's VERY bad.
Yeah, hadn't considered that. A real demoman is about precision, though... What about a perk that reduces the chance of item destruction when using explosives?

IMHO, trees destroy many possibilities to "make" your marine, which is a big part of fun in DoomRL...
Okay... Why do you think it does that? That's kind of an important piece of information, here. It seems to me that well-made trees make customization easier, for one because the options available will interact better due to having some planning behind them, and allowing for unique build order that doesn't make you a complete gimp when you get the wrong stuff. Currently running down the shotgun line is suicide if you have to wait until Hell's Armory to find a doublegun, and taking EE before you find an early one means you've completely wasted two points unless you resolve to stick it out with your chaingun until you miraculously discover a plasma rifle. The new tree sets things up in a way that you can make a "mistake" without it being a total loss. You can have a decent shotty and a decent chaingun, or you can pick one and make it really awesome.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2007, 12:53 by 007bistromath »
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Silhar

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Re: Weapon/Trait Overhaul
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2007, 14:12 »

Ok, here's an example :

I'm going to create an auto-weapon char. In 9.8.7. I take Eagle eye (for greater hit chance in coward tactics), Son Of A Bitch (for greater damage) and Triggerhappy (for faster shooting). If I have any skill points left, then I take Ironman or Tough as Nails. That build works well (***will*** work, when SoaB gets fixed), each trait here is useful for me. On level 12 my char is fully functional.

Your trait system version :
To take Eagle Eye, I must take at least one level of Intuition (for what, I ask ? I don't wanna be a sniper, and taking only one level of Int has not much sense. It will not give any great stuff). Then I can take Eagle Eye on level 2 (few of mine chars proably will get killed because of that I'll not hit anyone. My friggin' luck. But I can say is that lever nice or bad ! Great.). Then, I'll take SoaB for greater damage. On level 6 I can take Bullet Hose (ONLY ONE level ? This gives 10 bullets to fire each turn, with Triggerhappy (3) I fire 14 with my PR). I'll then proably take another 2 levels of EE. On level 9 I can finally pump myself up with TaN... if I'll take hellrunner (1) first. Dammit, I'm a walking tank, not a ninja ! On level 10 I finally get my beloved TaN & Ironman in one (Aye, that's the idea.). My plan is finished on level 12. This char has better armor, health, lower firing speed, can sense levers and better avoid bullets.

See ? In current version you can't have everything. This makes you choose one way you'll show these bastards. And here you can be a stealthy guy, a heavy support and a sniper in one person. And it is where all that fun is lost.

As Kornel said someday, I don't say that this idea is bad. I just want to show you my way of thinking is better. :)

007bistromath

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Re: Weapon/Trait Overhaul
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2007, 15:14 »

Ok, here's an example :

I'm going to create an auto-weapon char. In 9.8.7. I take Eagle eye (for greater hit chance in coward tactics), Son Of A Bitch (for greater damage) and Triggerhappy (for faster shooting). If I have any skill points left, then I take Ironman or Tough as Nails. That build works well (***will*** work, when SoaB gets fixed), each trait here is useful for me. On level 12 my char is fully functional.

Your trait system version :
To take Eagle Eye, I must take at least one level of Intuition (for what, I ask ? I don't wanna be a sniper, and taking only one level of Int has not much sense. It will not give any great stuff).
Dude, the lever sense is important. It's honestly the main reason I get Intuition. I have had some nasty situations completely turned around by finding a health station at the right time.
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Then I can take Eagle Eye on level 2 (few of mine chars proably will get killed because of that I'll not hit anyone. My friggin' luck. But I can say is that lever nice or bad ! Great.)
Keyword is "few." Eagle Eye is NOT important until you get the chaingun. I almost never die before I get one unless I screw up really badly on Hell's Arena. If you can't make it to CL2 before you need a chaingun, Eagle Eye won't save you.
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Then, I'll take SoaB for greater damage. On level 6 I can take Bullet Hose (ONLY ONE level ? This gives 10 bullets to fire each turn, with Triggerhappy (3) I fire 14 with my PR).
Am I the only person who has noticed that Triggerhappy doesn't exist anymore? I keep seeing people mentioning that, but I've never seen it on my list no matter what I take, and it's not on the wiki anywhere at all.
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I'll then proably take another 2 levels of EE. On level 9 I can finally pump myself up with TaN... if I'll take hellrunner (1) first. Dammit, I'm a walking tank, not a ninja ! On level 10 I finally get my beloved TaN & Ironman in one (Aye, that's the idea.). My plan is finished on level 12. This char has better armor, health, lower firing speed, can sense levers and better avoid bullets.
He also has more damage and knockback from the new SoaB, (more damage than you would get from current SoaB if it worked, I might add) and increased sight range from the new EE. That "lower firing speed" is double the rate of a normal chaingun, and much better than you can do currently since there isn't any Triggerhappy. That's by CL3.
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See ? In current version you can't have everything. This makes you choose one way you'll show these bastards. And here you can be a stealthy guy, a heavy support and a sniper in one person. And it is where all that fun is lost.
Make up your mind. Is it not fun because you can "have everything" or is it not fun because it's "underpowered?" You can't claim both of these things. The only complaint you have that really stands up is that you get TaN late. Now, for one thing, the order of Hellrunner and TaN could easily be switched, it really doesn't matter which one of those is first. Hell, I'd be for making them both available at start and you just have to have one of each to open up the melee stuff. That might even be an appropriate approach for all the trees. The main problem, however, is still with your build. Why did you get TaN at level 9? Because you stopped to get the other two levels of EE first. For your build, I would actually say that the best order is to specialize late. HR->TaN->Int->EE->etc. EE would be coming a little bit late, but it's not like you need it right away when you get your chaingun, and you seriously don't need the damage from SoaB until later on. Think about it: if you did, how could this game be playable while SoaB is broken? It can't be that important.

Gloating about your way of thinking is kind of silly when you're ignoring several key facts.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2007, 22:56 by 007bistromath »
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Const

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Re: Weapon/Trait Overhaul
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2007, 13:30 »

The new Hellrunner: really? The one we already have always seemed kind of underpowered to me.

Current Hellrunner is a good - only SoaB and SoaG (of course, with fixed damage) can be much better. Except Intuition - it's not a basic perk.
You underestimate HR.

Am I the only person who has noticed that Triggerhappy doesn't exist anymore? I keep seeing people mentioning that, but I've never seen it on my list no matter what I take, and it's not on the wiki anywhere at all.

TH requires SoaB2. And TH is strong.

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Only 12 perks is bad - in current version, there are 18 perks.
I don't see why. That they work and interact well is much more important than having alot of them.

For gameplay, not very interesting, how treeperks work.
For roleplay, some links are unclear. I don't understand, why reloader requires SoaB, why Demoman requires reloader, and why TaN requres HR:
Soab - you better shot, but how does it affect ability to reload?
Demoman - how does ability to reload affect bursts?
And more perks - more fun.
About "balanse" - perfect balanse = no perks; and in games such are Diablo2 and Fallout perks are disbalanced, but that games are great because threre are many perks in them. (And other features, of course)

Hellrunner - if you play an agile marine. TaN - if you play a tough marine.
How are agility and toughness linked?

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There are only a few that it makes any sense to take at the beginning of the game,

You underestimate some perks. Only Reloader is not good for the beginning.

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  People will be encouraged to experiment with chains they might not necessarily use for a while because of what they pick up, but it won't kill them because most of what they buy will provide some use regardless of equipment.

I think that it's not good. Hell is not a place for experiments; if marine experiments, and experiment is unsuccessful, marine must die.

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A higher Hellrunner and the new TaN should make survival to CL3

TaN only when you reach CL2.
And hellrunner is almost useless when fighting demons. Which means hard to access CL2.

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What about a perk that reduces the chance of item destruction when using explosives?

Sounds better, but i don't know possibility of that.

Some of your ideas are good, but most - hard to realize, or aren't logical. For example, "Bullet Hose". Why it increases number of shots with chaingun by 5, and for PR only by 2? It does not make any sense for me.
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007bistromath

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Re: Weapon/Trait Overhaul
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2007, 14:02 »

TH requires SoaB2. And TH is strong.
...

This wiki sucks.
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For gameplay, not very interesting, how treeperks work.
For roleplay, some links are unclear. I don't understand, why reloader requires SoaB, why Demoman requires reloader, and why TaN requres HR:
Soab - you better shot, but how does it affect ability to reload?
Demoman - how does ability to reload affect bursts?
None of those things are affected by any of the others, and the structure is not trying to imply that they are. The reason I made the trees that way is because they focus on weapon specialization. At the bottom are the things which benefit all characters about equally, and further up are things that give more benefit to a character using the weapon type that tree is made for.
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And more perks - more fun.
This is entirely subjective. When there are too many things to choose from, all it does is make that choice harder. What's really the best thing to do for my play style? The only way to find out is to experiment. According to you though, I shouldn't be allowed to experiment without dying five hundred times and not having anyway to know if it was my build or my method or my luck that was the problem. The game, as you want it to be, is unplayable garbage suitable only for the most OCD and the hardest of cores. That's not fun, it's frustrating, and it makes me want to go do something else.
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About "balanse" - perfect balanse = no perks; and in games such are Diablo2 and Fallout perks are disbalanced, but that games are great because threre are many perks in them. (And other features, of course)
This doesn't mean that balance shouldn't even be attempted. The entire point of perks is customization. If some perks are much more powerful than others, then you can't actually customize with them, because you're gimping your character. Making most of the stuff roughly equal in power is very important if you want customization rather than flat progression.
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TaN only when you reach CL2.
And hellrunner is almost useless when fighting demons. Which means hard to access CL2.
In my experience, a successful (not necessarily winning, but a good run) character usually has CL2 before, or sometimes about midway through, Hell's Arena. Demons are not a problem until after that.
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