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[ultimate26]

THIS MIGHT BE THE CURE FOR SHOTGUNS!

make Eagle eyes reduce the damage reduction from range!

it wont piss people off like me when i have 3 levels of eagle eyes and i find an assault shotgun!

now everyone can enjoy shotties as much as chainguns :)

OR! stop forcing people to take the first trait EE, i cant hit shit without 1 level of EE

[Silhar]

Seconded ! :D

[Thomas]

Not seconded. After winning a shotgunner game I can say without a doubt that shotguns are absolutely fine as is. If you're shooting from a long range, then you're doing it wrong. You need hellrunner and shottyman to fight with shotguns even half-effectively, much like you need SoaB and EE to fight with a plasma rifle without wasting 16 cells in each fight.

Basically, you either prepare for shotguns (Rel Rel SM TaN HR HR HR TaN TaN) or you prepare for rapid-fire weapons. (SoB SoB EE SoB TaN TaN TaN)

And even then, the strategies are radically different. Rapid-fire specialists focus on killing things the turn they appear. Lategame when this isn't possible, they have TaN 3 anyway and can soak up a little bit of damage if they need to. Shotgun specialists don't have this problem, because they're strafing around like big jerks with running on (Because running has NO NEGATIVE EFFECTS ON SHOTGUNS YAY) and never get hit enough to care about tanking.

So shotguns and rapid-fire weapons are mutually exclusive. If you're playing a rapid-fire game and you get a Jackhammer? Tough. Playing a shotgun game and find the GCB (I believe that's the 10mm weapon with 3 firing modes?), that's tough too. You could try to force a swap if you really wanted, but you'd be putting those levels of EE/HR/Reloader/whatever to waste, and getting those 2-3 trait points back would take a very long time.



UNRELATED, NEW IDEA ENTIRELY:

Hey, we have a rapidfire build (SoB, TaN and EE)
A shotgun build (SM, HR and Fin)
A melee build (Bru, Bsk and HR)
And even a gosh darned pistol build (SoG, DG and Fin)
So where's the rocket launcher build? (Something that reduces item/self damage, something that increases blast radius, something that increases blast damage)

EDIT: Actually, seeming how late you get AoE weapons, maybe you should only include one of those traits. But make it very very good, cause the rocket launcher SUCKS for general usage (Not including special levels, at which point it's a godsend)

[ultimate26]

i dont plan to snipe people with shotguns, in real doom shotguns where quite decent even from mid range! over here they cant do shit at midrange! and you still gotta reload so you loose tempo!

my build usually owns everything in sight without taking any damage, so i end up having 5+ health items.. just go EE EE EE SOB SOB SOB TH TH and whatever you want and nothing will stop you, i promise! i went cat eyes to kill things from far and i was wasting things before they even got close to me!

just careful for the ammo cuz u loose alot...

but still EE being a lil helpful on shotgun does no harm, why cant we enjoy different weapons? shotguns become useless if u go EE x3, i will do guaranteed multihits with my chaingun, making the shotgun totally useless.... crowd control? rocketlauncher deals with it, in the end shotguns are inferior(reload times, range reduction) chaingun and plasma? nothing wrong with emm.

[Davidos]

Bla bla bla, blablablabla, bla bla bla bla

You forgot to put Reloader in there ^-^ insta loadin shotties are pwnesome.

[rekenne]

Agreeing with Thomas. Except, maybe, a shotgun build based trait that reduces the damage reduction might be nice. Something unlocked by taking SM, maybe.

[skarczew]

And even a gosh darned pistol build (SoG, DG and Fin)

Pistol build is more like: SoG, DG, EE, CE. There is no point in rapid fire (and you can shot pretty fast with pistols) if you miss half of them. And CE is just a nice thing to add :) .

[Thomas]

i dont plan to snipe people with shotguns, in real doom shotguns where quite decent even from mid range! over here they cant do shit at midrange! and you still gotta reload so you loose tempo!

Again, you want shottyman and hellrunner. That way reloading is the least dangerous move in the game. I don't think I've ever gotten hit while reloading a shotgun, except of course for enemies that can't miss.

but still EE being a lil helpful on shotgun does no harm, why cant we enjoy different weapons? shotguns become useless if u go EE x3

And chainguns become useless if I spend my first 3 traits getting to shottyman instead.

chaingun and plasma? nothing wrong with emm.

Chainguns simply don't bring as much damage per second to the table as double shotguns do. If you're fighting a baron, you'll be hit more times using a chaingun than using a double shotgun. Remember that reloading doesn't matter, because your dodge chance is 99% with HR 3 and strafe bonus, and you reload while 99% dodging.

Plasma rifles are fine and all, but you need a bucketload of cells for the cyberdemon (Unless you're playing a shotgun game, in which case 0 cells is plenty) and usually, even on HNTR games, I'm in a permanent "Cell crisis" with only barely above 160 (160 is what I consider minimum, unless you bring lots of rockets as well).

As for a trait that does nothing BUT reduce the range penalty, I would consider taking that trait, but it would need to be better than that last level of HR that gives me oh so sweet dodge chance.

[rekenne]

And even a gosh darned pistol build (SoG, DG and Fin)

Pistol build is more like: SoG, DG, EE, CE. There is no point in rapid fire (and you can shot pretty fast with pistols) if you miss half of them. And CE is just a nice thing to add :) .

My build tends to be:
SoaG x2 -> DG -> SoaG -> EEx2 -> Finx2 and then either another rank in EE or a rank in WK.

The difference Finesse makes is so very worth it when it means the difference in shooting 4 times a second instead of 3. Blaster + Speed modded Pistol + 3x SoaG and 2x Fin is amazing. Like, I'd take a good Advanced pistol setup over an Anti-Freak. Grammaton ... Is a maybe, but I'll use it on Semi-Auto. Trigun? Hell yeah, .7 base speed anyway.

[TFoN]

I'm a chaingun person myself, but I've read plenty of posts by people who're content or more with the way shotguns work now, so I'm guessing it's more a matter of playing style and your own habits than it is a matter of shotguns being inferior.
Read and test what experienced shotgunners write before you judge by your own strategies.

it wont piss people off like me when i have 3 levels of eagle eyes and i find an assault shotgun!

Don't expect the same trait path to be good with all weapons - it's a matter of character specialization. You naturally don't expect an AoB char to use that same Assault Rifle, and you get bummed out when you find one. You should feel mostly the same when your EE*3 char finds it - bummed, but accept that's how it works when you choose to play a certain way.
If you're cunning, however, and aren't playing AoB/Mr, you could use it well for backup using the Juggler trait I love so very, very much (keep it in secondary, and access any numbered weapon only through primary).

[ultimate26]

I BELIEVE that all weapons should be useful by themselves and improve with traits, right now if u dont do anything with shotguns they are useless unless you fully trait emm up, chaingun and other guns are all decent, EE is a universal skill besides for shotguns... i could melee, pistols or chainguns if i max EE but not shotgun, for shotgun i could max reloader and shotty spec traits and it wont help my ranged tree!

this is a bit unfair because shotguns are being left aside, hell if i had to go close combat aint the chainsaw better? no ammo chewing decent damage and possibility to get lance.

the only advantage shotty gives is AOE damage, hits multiple targets without accuracy mods but distance reduction destroys the whole purpose! im not saying DO FULL DAMAGE FROM FAR! im saying make it more moderate or traitable so that its not SOOO bad.

and yea those who are protecting the shotgun build, try beating the game on hard or something and post a mortem, i want to see how often people can do shotty runs and be effective because seriously shotgun path is too narrow forcing you to use only shotguns, the EE path gives me everythign i find usefull

[rekenne]

With the shotty path, you still get the ability to use rockets or the BFG, due to the rocket having a massive accuracy boost anyway. And the BFG ... Well... Do I need to say more? So, realistically, the game goes Pistol until you get the shotgun, then you either go Rapidfire path or Shotty Path, with either one getting the Rocket and BFG.

And, really, are you trying to claim the Chaingun is useful without EE and SoaB? That's absurd. The pisspoor accuracy of the Chaingun and plasma gun in the latest versions makes it so trying to hit anything more than a couple of squares away without EE is impossible. And then SoaB is needed to make your bullets anything more than pings off the armor of most later enemies. Most end game enemies have 2 armor, giving the Chaingun a pitiful 1.6 damage per bullet on average. That, against a Baron of Hell, that you won't be hitting unless you're within a few squares, will kill him in 37.5 shots. That's 8 rounds of firing if every bullet hits. Cybie? He has 4 armor. Even the plasma gun is down to doing 0 damage half the time against that.

So, yeah. Each weapon standing without traits? Only the rocket and BFG meet that.

Hell, EE isn't even strictly mandatory in pistol builds. I normally take it once. Which isn't enough for a rapid fire build.

[Ischaldirh]

Thought I'd throw in my two cents, for what they're worth (which is probably significantly less than two cents).

I like shotguns. Well, more specifically I like the idea of shotguns. Automatic weapons just feel too mundane and obvious for me, not to mention the rate at which plasma cells vanish. I think they work great how they are, and fill a rather significant niche in the game (namely -- bailing out those long range guys when something angry gets too close), as well as being a fun primary that needs a bit of tactics to use, like pretty much everything else in this game. Aside from which, there are so many other traits to choose from

That being said, however, I do see some merit in his suggestion. I am of the opinion that in most games, any given option chosen at any given levelup should provide SOME usefulness regardless of what sort of path the character may take later in the game. I especially feel this way about the basic traits, since they unlock other, potentially useful advanced traits. I mean, imagine if by some fluke of chance you sank went down the Eagle Eye and Finesse trees, got all the useful traits for a chaingun build, and instead of finding fancy chainguns and plasma rifles to back up the strategy, every other level contained some form of advanced shotgun along with gazillions of shotgun shells? Now, obviously Eagle Eye should be more useful with a ranged-weapon build than a shotgun build; however I wouldn't mind seeing a little bit of crossover between the two even if it is ever so slight. After all, every other basic trait (barring SoaG, but that's special in it's own right) benefits the player in some way, however slight, no matter how they are armed: Reloader lets you get more bullets in your gun faster if there is an emergency need to reload in the middle of a firefight, Finesse lets you put lead in people faster, Hellrunner lets you get away before the demons can take advantage of the fact that you're out of ammo, etc.

However, I have another counter-point to my own statement. This particular idea simply is not logical. Of course, neither is the idea that just because you're an asshole you can do more damage, but that can be attributed to knowing where to aim, etc. But with the shotgun, you'd have to pretty well defy the laws of physics to make a shotgun lose damage more slowly at a range. The things work by tossing out a spray of small projectiles; the high damage at close range is due to more of them hitting the target. But as they get further away, they become less densely packed, meaning it becomes less and less likely that any given one will hit any given object.

So in short: I like the idea of this ability granting some small benefit, but dislike the idea of it providing this particular benefit.

[Thomas]

Stuff about all weapons being decent without traits except shotguns.

The chaingun and double shotty have similar usefulness on a traitless character. The chaingun keeps missing, the shotgun keeps doing reduced damage unless you can ambush your enemies in close range.

Heck, more range means less accuracy, so to stop your chaingun from missing you'd need to get up close like a shotgun user anyway.

this is a bit unfair because shotguns are being left aside, hell if i had to go close combat aint the chainsaw better? no ammo chewing decent damage and possibility to get lance.

It takes 3 seconds to reload then fire a Dshotgun for 36 damage.
But you can just keep swinging for 14 per hit every second with a chainsaw. This makes 42 every 3 seconds.
But then you add in the fact that the chainsaw can miss, and the 42 becomes roughly 36 again.

Keep in mind that there's no "Swing from a little further back to do less damage" option with the chainsaw, making it less versatile. And it does not do AoE damage.
And it can't destroy barrels without having you take lots of damage as a result.

And this is without mentioning the best part about the DoubleShotty, it's ability to do lots of damage in the first second (Which is the most important second. If you kill everything in the first second, it doesn't matter if you need to reload after that.)

Traitless Chaingun: 15 damage in one second... if every bullet hits. So around 11 on average then. (Note, this is only twice as good as a pistol shot.)
Traitless Rocket Launcher: The rocket does 14 damage, but the explosion adds another 14 on to that or something. Let's just call it 30.
Traitless DShotty: 36 damage in one second, at point blank. For every square you are away, remove 3 damage.
Traitless PlasmaRifle: 36 damage in one second... if every cell hits. So around 27 on average then.

Making the Doubleshotty better at one-shot-killing things than the plasma rifle at point blank or short ranges.
It's also better than the rocket launcher at point blank or short ranges, and it doesn't hurt you or the items.
And the chaingun is only better than the DShotty at, say, 10 squares away? Which is basically sniping the enemy.
 

and yea those who are protecting the shotgun build, try beating the game on hard

I was about to say I beat you to the punch there, but then I noticed that you specifically said "Hard" probably solely for this reason.

I've only beaten hard once (And V.Hard once as well) and it's certainly no walk in the park, even for the generic rapid-fire build. Heck, I could go out on a limb and assume that you've never beaten the game on hard. You would've posted a mortem of it or something if you did, right?

So if you think the rapidfire build's so great, then surely you could beat the game on hard like you claim the shotgun build can't. Of course, failure to do this means that you're admitting that the build doesn't matter per se, only the person actually playing.

[Visalos]

Thinking about the gripes about diminishing returns on shotty damage at range, I realize that SHOTGUNS ARE FOR BLOWING HUGE HOLES IN DEMONS POINT BLANK.