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Author Topic: New Traits  (Read 52303 times)

TFoN

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Re: New Traits
« Reply #60 on: March 09, 2007, 14:37 »

I at one point suggested the trait Massacre Man, enabling the dual-wielding of a chainsaw with all but a BFG or LS. That would probably be much more useful than an off-hand pistol, as putting 4d6 damage into a creature once it closes in on you (which would also be engineered) can prove lethal. Certainly, it can complement almost any weapon, once tarits are taken in HR and EE, traits useful in almost any event. A pistol's only really worthwhile with SoaG, and that only augments the pistol.

Traits aren't part of Doom, but as of 0.9.8.5 almost all traits either reflect a skilled Doom player's abilities, knowledge and reflexes (e.g. EE, Intuition, Shottyman (which "should" be a standard feature), HR~) or directly influence simple numerical values (e.g. SoaB, TaN, IM). The only two exceptions I can think of are Berserker and Dualgunner, where the former is an extention of an existing feature and the latter isn't nearly as severe in its implications as acidic blood.

Hell's Champion may be on hold, but that doesn't mean there's any more room for acidic blood in standard DoomRL than there was before. Besides, if Kornel will decide to release the source code at any time, but specifically before your two years, then it will be just a little more relevant to discuss where this falls in.

AFAIK, HKs/Barons using plasma is Doom canon. I'll try finding something, later, if I'll remember.

DaEezT

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Re: New Traits
« Reply #61 on: March 09, 2007, 18:29 »

I at one point suggested the trait Massacre Man, enabling the dual-wielding of a chainsaw with all but a BFG or LS. That would probably be much more useful than an off-hand pistol, as putting 4d6 damage into a creature once it closes in on you (which would also be engineered) can prove lethal.

I don't remember seeing that but I like it.
The chainsaw in the second slot is used automatically, and without switching weapons or any penalty, whenever you attack at melee range. It wouldn't work with the LS because the main weapon takes priority, so the player would attack with it, instead of using the off hand chainsaw. As for the BFG, i think it should be allowed. I usually have a RL or chaingun in the other slot so I can switch over and finished the wounded enemies off instead of wasting more plasma.
While you could use the chainsaw to do so it is not always as save or practical as using another strong ranged weapon.
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"Morality is merely a convention with which men mutually agree to delude themselves. There are no moral facts, just preferences, and one is no better than any other."

Supernaut

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Re: New Traits
« Reply #62 on: March 10, 2007, 02:39 »

I would like the idea, but I think it is fairly overpowered. Disadvantage of rl for example is that you can't use it at close range. You want to take it away by giving the player a relatively HUGE damage weapon. Chainsaw is stronger than Rocket Launcher! It is actually stronger than almost every weapon, apart from Plasma Rifle, BFG and of course spoily weapon. And it wouldn't reflect a skilled player, nor a numeric number, would it? Besides let's just drop thinking about which trait represent a skilled player and which not, because this way we won't find too many new traits.

Hmmm what about tweaking juggler so that instead of 20% speed change it let's you swap weapons 50% faster? with 2 of those traits you could swap weapons in no time, which really is helpful.
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TFoN

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Re: New Traits
« Reply #63 on: March 10, 2007, 06:59 »

Between the minimal range required for safe use of a RL and melee range there are enough spaces, and therefore enough danger, to likely keep this balanced. On the other hand, regarding the BFG, I think the reason they were eventually counted out, during conversation, was that they don't harm the char.

Dualwielding of a chainsaw actually can [partially] reflect a skilled player's control of, and timing with, weapon swapping.
Any way, you can't really argue that allowing a dualwielded chainsaw makes as much or less sense here than acidic blood. What I said about reflection of skill and numerical values was said to stress the fact that traits are currently strongly related to Doom features and the such and/or do not act as total conversions from an otherwise traitless char. The exception is probably Intuition(3), which is being nerfed for that reason exactly. Adding acidic blood will pose a major balance issue, considering how deeply it will change game mentality once it is taken.

I can only hope Juggler is being changed drastically for the next release. But a 50% reduction per level seems to me quite huge. I think 20% can be fine, but it should be for all weapon swaps.

Supernaut

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Re: New Traits
« Reply #64 on: March 10, 2007, 09:07 »

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Between the minimal range required for safe use of a RL and melee range there are enough spaces, and therefore enough danger, to likely keep this balanced.
When the enemy is right beside you, you can use chainsaw. 1 tile away, you walk towards him and use chainsaw. Even 2 spaces away you can try running to him. When the enemy is 3 tiles away you go backwards and shoot rl. When the enemy is 4 tiles away you either shoot, knowing you will take little damage or go one step back. This gives too much versatility in my opinion. Unless you give the player some negatives on CTH or CTD this will be way too overpowered.

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Dualwielding of a chainsaw actually can [partially] reflect a skilled player's control of, and timing with, weapon swapping.
Juggler does. And not partially. Allowing a player to have a very strong melee weapon in addition of a ranged weapon seems still overpowered.

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I can only hope Juggler is being changed drastically for the next release. But a 50% reduction per level seems to me quite huge. I think 20% can be fine, but it should be for all weapon swaps.
50 % per level is huge. But otherwise it seems worthless. It may even be 40 %. 20% seems way too little, and favors other traits.
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TFoN

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Re: New Traits
« Reply #65 on: March 10, 2007, 12:22 »

This is the original thread.
http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php?topic=627.0

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When the enemy is right beside you, you can use chainsaw. 1 tile away, you walk towards him and use chainsaw. Even 2 spaces away you can try running to him. When the enemy is 3 tiles away you go backwards and shoot rl. When the enemy is 4 tiles away you either shoot, knowing you will take little damage or go one step back. This gives too much versatility in my opinion. Unless you give the player some negatives on CTH or CTD this will be way too overpowered.
Although I disagree with your logic, RLs can always be discluded and penalties added if it is proven otherwise.

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50 % per level is huge. But otherwise it seems worthless. It may even be 40 %. 20% seems way too little, and favors other traits.
Consider that an 80%-100% decrease in swapping time could easily eclipse Reloader, as players will begin carrying pairs of their main weapon, making mid-combat reloading extremely rare. Also, consider that your argument against Massacre Man will then involve all crossings of all weapons, swapping SGs with RLs in zero time for huge amounts of safe damage as one example, and of course, swapping CSs with RLs effectively the way Massacre Man intends, which I don't mind but you do, as another. It could also make the LS a quick armor bonus in much the way switching to "coward" works.

Supernaut

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Re: New Traits
« Reply #66 on: March 10, 2007, 15:39 »

Then make it a procent that is not overpowered and worth spending a trait on, I don't think 20 % does the job. Besides I just came on an idea. Make it one trait worth 50% .

Besides I would just like to know why do you think it won't be overpowered to have a huge damage melee and a normal ranged at the same time? Poor demons ;) .
« Last Edit: March 10, 2007, 15:41 by Supernaut »
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RepoRipper

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Re: New Traits
« Reply #67 on: March 11, 2007, 00:41 »

ok first of all if u read the description for HK and/or BH it says acid, and in doom 2 they fling green balls at u, ie acid. only Cacodemons belch plasma, but its actually blue Ball-lightning, but they have blue blood. i think the HK/BH have green blood...
anyway, how about calling the acid blood trait "Hellhearted" or ....omg! "Bloody Hell!" ;) requireing 2TAN and 1 Berserker

as for Hell's Champion... I restarted that topic!!! its not yet certain, but Kornel might implement it for 1.0.0, with everyone pitching in from here till then with enemies and stuff for that mode. look at the "Hell's Champion" topic
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TFoN

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Re: New Traits
« Reply #68 on: March 11, 2007, 03:46 »

Juggler as a 1-ranker sounds ok, but at 50% it should be advanced, IMO. I'm not sure by weans of what.

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Besides I would just like to know why do you think it won't be overpowered to have a huge damage melee and a normal ranged at the same time? Poor demons ;) .
First off: discluding the LS, melee isn't quite overpowered. Most players consider it overpowered based on the AoB advantages and on the said LS, but with those off the table you'll be taking enough damage and dealing enough less for the game to be, possibly miserably, balanced.
Now, considering base statistics, the chances of a melee opportunity are rather small - 8 adjacent spaces vs. ~140 (I think) in-LOS non-adjacent spaces. Naturally, adding player engineering to the equation, the number of melee opportunities can become much higher, but chances can't be "often" without altering your location (or your targets), which often means walking towards your firing enemy. Massacre Man can reduce this process by one turn, which is fair. In those cases where a monster walks all the way up to you as you fire, it will certainly put you in a good position to retaliate, something which advanced traits are supposed to do - but consider that a good player will usually not let monsters that close, making strong monsters who survive so many shots (including Arach swarms in their caves) fair game. A player to whom monsters always catch up due to his skill won't be turning things around only thanks to this trait. Remember that the CS will be taking up the alternate weapon slot, making weapon swapping harder to control, likely killing off unskilled players more often than it will unjustly save them.
Back to the RL case, during those intermediate turns you could, instead of walking towards your target, swap to a CG/SG on one turn and begin firing it on your next. This means that there are already good options at the player's disposal. The Massacre Man trait will only be adding one to the lot, one with its own considerations, advantages and disadvantages. The cases where you walk back to fire your RL don't make sense, in context because they don't involve the CS in their considerations, and otherwise because walking back usually doesn't save you - your target will either fire at you or give chase, either way making swapping to a CG/SG more worthwhile, and anyway making this a judgement call with no obvious advantages, which is by definition not overpowered.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baron_of_Hell#Baron_of_Hell
It's said there once that they fire energy and once plasma, but never acid.
If that's not enough, I'll try to find a better source, which I know I have somewhere on my computer. Somewhere...

Just because the balls are green, doesn't make them acid. For one example, Fallout has green shots fired from the plasma rifle, and the colour of radioactive waste there is green. On a more severe note, most acids on earth aren't green :)

If the trait will be implemented, "Bloody Hell!" sounds great to me.

RepoRipper

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Re: New Traits
« Reply #69 on: March 14, 2007, 21:27 »

ok ok i relent on the acid, but also note that it says plasma for a Doom SEQUEL! not 1 or 2! so that does not count! as for "energy", i dont know, so ill give you that... although the BFG does fire green blasts of plasma.... but then why does the plasma rifle fire blue blasts??? OH btw, WTF IS DOOM RPG?????????????????????????
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Anticheese

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Re: New Traits
« Reply #70 on: March 15, 2007, 01:45 »

DoomRPG is a spinoff game developed for mobile phones. I played it once and did not think it very doom-ish.

BoH's fire plasma. Period.

You know that radioactive material is usually blue? Alot of acids are also transparent. There is no clearly defined reason for the differences in plasma colours but here are my takes.

Logical:

Because there are about 4 different flavors of plasma in Doom I and II (BFG9K, Plasma Rifle, Imp, BoH/HK) each needs to be different in order for the player to tell them apart.

Imps are your traditional hell soldier and also rather mass produced and as such would not have a very special weapon - Imp fire is pretty much just that.

Barons of Hell and Hell Knights are special, more powerful demons and so their plasma is not entirely normal.

Human technology produces plasma artificially and is quite different from the Doom demons natural plasma generation abilities. Of course it is going to be different.

Got to go now.
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RepoRipper

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Re: New Traits
« Reply #71 on: March 21, 2007, 15:46 »

imps fire fireballs, not plasma, and any source you could provide that says otherwise is made by an idiot, and is not official. also the balls look like the rockets u fire, and that is OBVIOUSLY fire, not plasma. sorry bout that, anyway....
DoomRPG....omg :) that is so stupid! Doom for ur Cellphone! Next up, Doom for the Game Boy! no, not DS, Game Boy! and it will probably be a Game Boy Color Cartridge!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (sorry, its just too much stupidity, i think im gonna croak from laughter!)
as to acid and plasma and radioctive materials.... forget it, i concede, except for that both plasma and radiation can be either green or blue, and acids come in a large number of colors. but ill be damned if ive ever heard of Red or Purple or Turquiose Plasma! well, maybe turquiose! :)
oh, btw, heres my imitation of the Dopefish

 8E
|  |
 \/
 ^
vry bad i know..... (if u want to know what a "Dopefish" is, go to www.dopefish.com/fishinfo.html)
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TFoN

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Re: New Traits
« Reply #72 on: March 22, 2007, 05:08 »

Never played DoomRPG, and I doubt I'll ever bother. It just doesn't sound worth the effort.

I agree that Imps have fireballs. The only thing that can change my mind is the original source, which I know I have somewhere but can't seem to find...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_%28physics%29
Plasma comes in all kinds of colours, and I think the first picture presents both red and purple ;)
But I'm not very educated in the matter, and that might not be proper plasma, or something. All I know's that fire's fun, and plasma's more fun.

RepoRipper

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Re: New Traits
« Reply #73 on: March 24, 2007, 13:57 »

hehe.  new trait idea!

name: Reaperman
Requirements: 3 Brute  (1 level)
effect: all melee attacks have a 5% (or 10%) chance to instantly kill the enemy (if it hits. and it doesnt work on cybie [or JC!]
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Fingerzam

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Re: New Traits
« Reply #74 on: March 28, 2007, 13:45 »

hehe.  new trait idea!

name: Reaperman
Requirements: 3 Brute  (1 level)
effect: all melee attacks have a 5% (or 10%) chance to instantly kill the enemy (if it hits. and it doesnt work on cybie [or JC!]

Sounds a bit useless, as you can already kill almost everything in 1 or 2 hits with the spear while berserking. It would be more useful if you don't have the spear, but I don't see much point in getting Brute(3) and not getting the spear. I guess if the spear was nerfed enough this could be a useful trait, but I don't really know if this would be needed as there already are two melee traits.
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