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[Melon]

Anyone played Nethack? There's a "hidden" Sokoban like level: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fQqWx4ORaA

I was wondering if such could be implemented in DoomRL but in a way to retain the climate of gore

[skarczew]

Every Hell level with too many barrels is like Sokoban.

[raekuul]

Hmm... a Sokoban-style variant of the Unholy Cathedral might be interesting.

[skarczew]

Hmm, and what would you do in this Sokoban Cathedral?
The thing is, it needs to resemble oryginal Sokoban game (pushing boxes into certain positions).

[Tavana]

The only way I could see a Sokoban element working even in a hidden level would be to have the items that need to be moved around as enemies which you knock back with your melee attacks - hence UC would be perfect for it.

What I mean is: You cannot damage the enemy with your attacks, but you can be damaged (a small amount) by a melee attack from it. The creatures have a very slow move speed, and a somewhat higher attack speed (they will nearly always get a swing at you, but won't run after you too quickly). Imagine a maze style complex where you need to knock these creatures back into, well, let's use teleporters since they're already in there. Each teleporter disappears once used by the creature and has a static output...if you're that creature.

[skarczew]

I have been thinking about the other thing:

The item that should be moved are the barrels. Once all of the barrels are in positions, they should change into ...Cacodemons.
There were lots of times when I mistook a flying ball for a barrel, which resulted in a non-nuclear level clusterfuck.

[Uranium]

There were lots of times when I mistook a flying ball for a barrel, which resulted in a non-nuclear level clusterfuck.

oh man the amount of times i've mistaken enemies for barrels
"No! Bad barrel! Stop spawning lost souls!"

[skarczew]

Well, Pain Elementals are no problem once they spawn souls ;) .
But Cacos ... I later changed color for them, only to discover that Agony got the same. Meh =) .

[Melon]

How about: you have to push barrels of napalm into place. They cannot be destroyed, but if they get hit they spill lava all over the place. You have to push the barrels quickly into right place, otherwise you'll get flooded with lost souls (or other monsters on higher difficulty level) which spawn from time to time. Developer has to make sure, that monsters are spawned in a way, that will not prevent the hero from moving barrels into correct place. You don't get xp for the monsters!

This would be a good challenge for berserker. You can enter as a regular character but you'll have to watch not to damage the barrels during the carnage, otherwise you'll have to push barrels into lava.

Now what's next. Fight with another boss of doom? Or you can reward for completing the level?

Also, as this level is sort of a prank, it shouldn't appear very often. Only 1 out of 20 games? And it should be somewhere in Hell, so it also would make discovery of that level very rare.

[skarczew]

How about: you have to push barrels of napalm into place. They cannot be destroyed, but if they get hit they spill lava all over the place. You have to push the barrels quickly into right place, otherwise you'll get flooded with lost souls (or other monsters on higher difficulty level) which spawn from time to time. Developer has to make sure, that monsters are spawned in a way, that will not prevent the hero from moving barrels into correct place. You don't get xp for the monsters!

This would be a good challenge for berserker. You can enter as a regular character but you'll have to watch not to damage the barrels during the carnage, otherwise you'll have to push barrels into lava.

Now what's next. Fight with another boss of doom? Or you can reward for completing the level?

Also, as this level is sort of a prank, it shouldn't appear very often. Only 1 out of 20 games? And it should be somewhere in Hell, so it also would make discovery of that level very rare.

I think that Lava Barrels are not very sokobanish. The Sokoban itself had a very narrow corridors, and lava/napalm would block the passages instantly.
The beauty of the game was to find a solution for a puzzle, not to wreak havoc around.

Second thing I do not like is creating a level for Berserker only. The times when it was the most challenging thing in DoomRL have passed. No need for more buffs.

The way I see it is a modification of yer idea:
- a part of a level (something around vault size) could be a Sokoban puzzle. The area itself could be surrounded by water to prevent taking other barrels there;
- Sokoban puzzle should be inaccessible for monsters (dead stuff on ground could make puzzle insolvable); an indestructible wall (and an associated lever) could be decent protection;
- once a puzzle is solved (all barrels are in positions), the other special part of level (presumably surrounded with unbreakable wall) would become accessible;
- that other part of level could have another part of Sokoban puzzle, or some boss to fight with, or some reward, or stairs to a special level, etc;
- the level itself should have flavour text about Sokoban puzzle existance; e.g. "Somehow you feel an urge to push things...", "Somehow you feel an urge to have everything in its place...";

Some examples of Sokoban puzzles:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_WmVBwEE4U (original game)
http://www.sourcecode.se/sokoban/levels.php

[Klear]

One thing to consider is that unlike sokoban, you can push barrels diagonally, which gives the player more freedom, which in turn (at least I think) limits the possibilities for making interesting puzzles.

[skarczew]

@Klear:
You are totally right.

Maybe remove the possibility of diagonal movement while inside the Sokoban puzzle? :P
I am not sure how was this solved in Nethack, as I haven't played it.

[Melon]

I would see it this way:
- This level should be easier for berserks. We only have one true berserker level.
- No diagonal movement!
- Lava barrels. If you shot, lava spurs out, sometimes blocking the puzzles. Tough luck! You still can exit the level normal way.
- Monsters get spawned if you stay too long. They are added to your "career" stats, but you don't get any experience from them. However, getting ammo from them is still possible.
- Barrels have to be put in right place. After this happens, some wall lowers/explodes/disappear revealing staircase to another level or encounter with a special enemy/mini-boss.
- As for the enemy I would imagine some great daemon that throws barrels at you or pieces of wall or corpses, whatever it has at his hands. If you get hit, you get pushed back, making it harder for you to reach it. This daemon is very slow, but can kill you in two hits. Yup! But if you are a fast berserker/dodger you can use the hit and run tactics. As for ranged weapons, it is heavily armored and it's hard to do any damage from range unless you hit its weak spot (bonus from Eagle Eye perhaps?)
- The reward? http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Quietus

[Kashi]

- The reward? http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Quietus

Or the Gauntlets of the Necromancer

[Melon]

Or the Gauntlets of the Necromancer

Hm, we already have a chainsaw. Maybe it has the ability to heal the player? This however combined with Vampyrism might by "I win!" button. Still, I think a melee weapon from Hexen or Heretic would be sufficient. Perhaps a weapon from enemy: http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Sabreclaw . This would grant you speed and greater damage but you would receive additional knockback