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Author Topic: [M|96%|Win] YAFVP - shottyman path  (Read 12405 times)

Zarin

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[M|96%|Win] YAFVP - shottyman path
« on: March 06, 2007, 09:31 »

(Edit - put <mortem> tags where they belong)
I couldn't remember whether it was this game or another one where it crashed in the Arena after the second wave was done, managed to create a save, and then I had to battle through Arena again with 3 small med-packs and two 100% green armors gone.  Judging by level 3 appearing twice I think it's this one.  Imagine my disgust...

Anyway, the mortem: (the one previous win mentioned at the bottom was save-scummed; this one was clean)

--------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (v.0.9.8.5) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 Arkady, level 10 Cacodemon Corporal, defeated the Cyberdemon
 on level 25 of the Phobos base.
 He survived 140241 turns and scored 66842 points.
 He didn't like it too rough.

 He killed 542 out of 566 hellspawn. (96%)
 He held his right to remain violent.

 He found the Phobos Arena.
 He stormed the Chained Court.
 He ventured into the Halls of Carnage.
 He fought on Hell's Arena.
 He became a champion of Hell's Arena!
 He witnessed the City of Skulls.
 He faced The Wall.
 He wandered into the Unholy Cathedral.
 He was caught in the Mortuary!
 And he managed to clear it!

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 64/80   Experience 44407/10
  ToHit +3  ToDmg Ranged +0  ToDmg Melee +0

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

    Ironman        (Level 3)
    Tough as nails (Level 3)
    Reloader       (Level 2)
    Eagle Eye      (Level 1)
    Shottyman      (Level 1)

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   Angelic Armor [3/6] (40%)
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   double shotgun (6d3)x2 [0/2]
    [c] [ Boots      ]   protective boots [4/4] (98%)
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   advanced rocket launcher (4d5) [1/1]

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] red armor [4/4] (100%)
    [b] red armor [4/4] (100%)
    [c] red armor [4/4] (100%)
    [d] chainsaw (4d6)
    [e] advanced plasma rifle (1d9)x8 [40/40]
    [f] advanced BFG 9000 (8d9) [20/100]
    [g] shotgun shell (x50)
    [h] shotgun shell (x15)
    [i] rocket (x10)
    [j] power cell (x50)
    [k] power cell (x50)
    [l] power cell (x50)
    [m] thermonuclear bomb
    [n] large med-pack
    [o] phase device
    [p] phase device
    [q] large med-pack
    [r] large med-pack

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    63 former humans
    60 former sergeants
    24 former captains
    32 imps
    47 demons
    69 lost souls
    50 cacodemons
    20 barons of hell
    1 Cyberdemon
    14 hell knights
    37 arachnotrons
    2 former commandos
    16 pain elementals
    5 arch-viles

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

 He started his journey on the suface of Phobos.
 On level 2 he battled through the complex.
 On level 3 he battled through the complex.
 On level 3 he battled through the complex.
 Afterwards he fought on Hell's Arena.
 On level 4 he battled through the complex.
 He then stormed the Chained Court.
 On level 5 he battled through the complex.
 On level 6 he found a hellish city.
 On level 7 he battled through the complex.
 On level 8 he battled through the complex.
 On level 9 he found hellish caves.
 Afterwards he witnessed the Wall.
 On level 10 he battled through the complex.
 On level 11 he battled through the complex.
 On level 12 he battled through the complex.
 On level 13 he battled through the complex.
 On level 14 he battled through a maze of rooms.
 He then ventured into the Halls of Carnage.
 On level 15 he found hellish caves.
 Then he found the City of Skulls.
 On level 16 he found a hellish city.
 Then he invaded the Unholy Cathedral.
 On level 17 he found hellish caves.
 On level 18 he battled through a maze of rooms.
 On level 19 he found hellish caves.
 On level 20 he battled through a maze of rooms.
 On level 21 he found hellish caves.
 On level 22 he found hellish caves.
 He was foolish enough to enter the Mortuary!
 On level 23 he found a hellish city.
 On level 24 he battled through the complex.
 Then at last he found the Phobos Arena.
 There he finally defeated the Cyberdemon.

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 Before him 209 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 195 of those were killed.
 7 of those were killed by something unknown.
 And 6 couldn't handle the stress and commited a stupid suicide.

 Some rumours though, say that the Cyberdemon was killed already!
 Is he immortal? 1 souls claim to have killed him...
 1 killed the bastard and survived.

--------------------------------------------------------------
I found double shotgun relatively early so I decided "why not Shottyman?"  Shotgun ammo was plentiful, so I decided to keep 10-mm ammo to a minimum and use the chaingun only until I get Shottyman, then switch to DSG almost exclusively.  I made a resolution to stay away from the cheesy EE(2)/Int(3) path, and instead went IM(2)/TaN/Rel(2)/Shotty/TaN(2)/EE/IM(3)/TaN(3).  The single EE was to help hit with RL when there was a need.

I totally skipped Unholy Cathedral, but the chainsaw did save my ass once when I ran out of SG ammo - somewhere deep in the dungeon, in hellish caves with Arachnotrons.  I had to go toe-to-toe with the last one.  Fortunately, I picked enough ammo AFTER clearing that level, so on I went again.

My first guaranteed BFG was destroyed by Baron's acid ball, but Shottyman and DSG make City of Skulls a clean run, so the two BFGs down there were intact, as all the powercells.

I "was foolish enough to enter the Mortuary" (no, really - I wondered "where can THIS red stairway lead?" and ... saved on top of it.  By the way, I noticed that Wiki doesn't have entry text for Mortuary, so here it is (note: double "is" between "the floor" and "covered" was really there):

The smell of blood!  Can this be real??  The floor is
is covered by blood, and there are corpses everywhere!
Suddenly with a wail, arch-viles appear!

The left side of Mortuary was cleared with BFG shots, but then I ran out of ammo and had to switch to my advanced RL.  Fortunately, the bulk of enemies was already down, so I emerged victorious.  I guess I killed at least a couple of Arch-Viles by splash damage from the RL.  Anyway, the booty was well worth the effort.

The encounter with Cyberdemon was uneventful: use up all advanced BFG shots, switch to DSG while closing to nearly melee range - on HNTR Cyberdemon misses moving target a lot - kill.  I used only one large med-pack in the process.  Mortuary was much more adrenalin-pumping, IMHO.

On to HMP!

Regards,
    Arkady.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2007, 12:48 by Zarin »
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TFoN

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Re: [M|96%|Win] YAFVP - shottyman path
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2007, 10:21 »

Savescumming really is a bad thing to do, is looked down upon by most of us and isn't worth it at all if you really want to get better.
Other than that, great game, and I'm looking forward to seeing more successful outcomes. Unfortunatly, it seems many of the newer players here are advancing rather slowly, so we don't get to read many good mortems from fresh posters :) (at that, good luck to all!)

Also, Arachs have terrible melee damage. They actually tend to be worth killing with a CS even if you do have ammo. Just don't push yourself to do this from a bad spot and get fried on the way :P

Styro

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Re: [M|96%|Win] YAFVP - shottyman path
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2007, 11:09 »

Congrats on the win! And with Shottyman!

I love Shottyman games, but I'm just not that good at it and run out of ammo pretty quickly. The chaingun and dual pistols are my best friends. :)
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Zarin

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Re: [M|96%|Win] YAFVP - shottyman path
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2007, 12:36 »

Savescumming really is a bad thing to do, is looked down upon by most of us and isn't worth it at all if you really want to get better.
Other than that, great game...
Please note that I have not save scummed on the reported game - it's just that one of my previous savescummed games ended with a win, which I never even considered "real".  I came to DoomRL from ADoM, where savescumming is also very much frowned upon.
However, savescumming is a good way to get a feel for the game before trying the actual win.

Anyway, it feels really nice to know that I can win this game (on HNTR, but still) without cheating.  Now I'm torn between two goals - making level 10 on AoMr/HNTR and winning on HMP.  So far all my attempts in either one end after the first Arch-Vile or even earlier :(
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TFoN

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Re: [M|96%|Win] YAFVP - shottyman path
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2007, 01:53 »

I haven't been playing DoomRL much recently, so I may remember wrong, but it doesn't make sense to me that you would encounter an AV by dlvl 10 on HNTR.

Regardless, what traits have you been taking for AoMr?

Zarin

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Re: [M|96%|Win] YAFVP - shottyman path
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2007, 08:03 »

Regardless, what traits have you been taking for AoMr?
I start with SoaG(2), DG, then either TaN or IM.  However, yesterday I tried something different: SoaG(3)->DG->Fin and it seemed to work much better.  I got too immersed in a fight and forgot that reloading two guns can be really slow.  I started reloading at 34% health, and two acid blasts from a Hell Knight later found my health in negative numbers :)

Still, this game felt much better than my previous attempts, so I'll continue to go the speed shooter way.
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Fingerzam

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Re: [M|96%|Win] YAFVP - shottyman path
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2007, 13:24 »

Regardless, what traits have you been taking for AoMr?
I start with SoaG(2), DG, then either TaN or IM.  However, yesterday I tried something different: SoaG(3)->DG->Fin and it seemed to work much better.  I got too immersed in a fight and forgot that reloading two guns can be really slow.  I started reloading at 34% health, and two acid blasts from a Hell Knight later found my health in negative numbers :)

Still, this game felt much better than my previous attempts, so I'll continue to go the speed shooter way.

Yes, SoaG(3)->DG is better than SoaG(2)-DG->SoaG(3) and taking finesse after first level of DG is better than taking additional levels of DG.

EDIT: Also, SoaG(3) is better than SoaG(2)->DG

As reloading two guns really takes time, try to look for places where you can take cover while reloading. You can also reload just your primary gun by doing a normal reload, which will take less time. If the situation is really desperate and you think you can kill your enemies with a single gun, this can be a life saver.

A point or two in reloader later in the game should be considered, but defensive traits take priority before that.
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Supernaut

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Re: [M|96%|Win] YAFVP - shottyman path
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2007, 13:35 »


As reloading two guns really takes time, try to look for places where you can take cover while reloading. You can also reload just your primary gun by doing a normal reload, which will take less time. If the situation is really desperate and you think you can kill your enemies with a single gun, this can be a life saver.

Also consider that with SoaG (3) and F shooting with 1 gun will take much less time then with 2 guns. And reloading 1 gun takes less time.
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Styro

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Re: [M|96%|Win] YAFVP - shottyman path
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2007, 13:43 »

I always do SoG->SoG->DG->SoG->DG.

I figure that even though it is slower with Dual Gunner, I get to shoot 12 bullets instead of just 6 at an enemy before I have to reload. This will kill most enemies so I can reload in peace instead of reloading while under fire with 1 pistol. YMMV.
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Fingerzam

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Re: [M|96%|Win] YAFVP - shottyman path
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2007, 05:32 »

I always do SoG->SoG->DG->SoG->DG.

I figure that even though it is slower with Dual Gunner, I get to shoot 12 bullets instead of just 6 at an enemy before I have to reload. This will kill most enemies so I can reload in peace instead of reloading while under fire with 1 pistol. YMMV.

This would make sense, but shooting, reloading and shooting with one gun and SoaG(3) does more damage in the same amount of time than shooting 12 bullets with SoaG2)+DG. You can find the calculations at the AoMr discussion topic. So SoaG(3) is better in any possible scenario than SoaG(2)+DG. Though I don't know if it applies with latest beta, as the advanced pistol now doesn't have any dmg difference in the beginning.

Also, Finesse is better than additional levels in DG because of the point where Dualgunner's negative bonus is applied.
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BDR

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Re: [M|96%|Win] YAFVP - shottyman path
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2007, 14:18 »

Though I don't know if it applies with latest beta, as the advanced pistol now doesn't have any dmg difference in the beginning.

It doesn't.  Here's the math:

Both guns are now, indeed, 2-8 instead of 2-10 + 2-8.  This means that for SoG 2 -> DG the average damage per bullet is 9 while the energy taken to fire both guns is 840, and for 12 shots that adds up to 108 damage and 5040 energy used total.  SoG 3 makes the average damage per bullet 11 and the energy taken to fire the one gun 400, but when you take reloading into account (which uses 1200 energy) you only get 9.6 shots, and that adds up to only 105.6 average damage over the same 5040 energy.  However, if you find a certain spoily before you hit level 3 you'll want to take SoG 3 first.

As for DG 2, the beta has changed it so the math may seem a little wonky.  A person who has SoG 3 & DG 1 and takes DG 2 actually fires 20 energy faster than a person who (with the same initial traits) takes Fin 1 first, but a person who has SoG 3 & DG 2 and takes Fin 1 fires 20 energy slower than the person who took Fin 1 before and is now taking Fin 2.  It's only 20 energy either way, though, so personal preference pretty well wins the day.
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Silencexy

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Re: [M|96%|Win] YAFVP - shottyman path
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2007, 14:36 »

Though I don't know if it applies with latest beta, as the advanced pistol now doesn't have any dmg difference in the beginning.

It doesn't.  Here's the math:

Both guns are now, indeed, 2-8 instead of 2-10 + 2-8.  This means that for SoG 2 -> DG the average damage per bullet is 9 while the energy taken to fire both guns is 840, and for 12 shots that adds up to 108 damage and 5040 energy used total.  SoG 3 makes the average damage per bullet 11 and the energy taken to fire the one gun 400, but when you take reloading into account (which uses 1200 energy) you only get 9.6 shots, and that adds up to only 105.6 average damage over the same 5040 energy.  However, if you find a certain spoily before you hit level 3 you'll want to take SoG 3 first.

As for DG 2, the beta has changed it so the math may seem a little wonky.  A person who has SoG 3 & DG 1 and takes DG 2 actually fires 20 energy faster than a person who (with the same initial traits) takes Fin 1 first, but a person who has SoG 3 & DG 2 and takes Fin 1 fires 20 energy slower than the person who took Fin 1 before and is now taking Fin 2.  It's only 20 energy either way, though, so personal preference pretty well wins the day.

you know, in the time it took me trying to comprehend this post I could have nailed like 10 cacodemons ;)

EDIT: emphasis is on 'trying', well I failed :p maybe tomorrow when I'm fresh
« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 14:38 by Silencexy »
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BDR

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Re: [M|96%|Win] YAFVP - shottyman path
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2007, 19:21 »

Ok, then... It may make more sense after you read the original post in the AoMr discussion topic by Fingerzam, but I'll try to re-explain.

Advanced pistols in Angel of Marksmanship are no longer 2d5; they are 2d4 like normal pistols (though they can have spoilies attached, which can end up making them far better than what you'd originally have from the 2d5 pistol).  This means that instead of having one 2d5 pistol (which does 2-10 damage) and one 2d4 pistol (which does 2-8 damage), you have two 2d4 pistols (which both do 2-8 damage), which results in lower average damage than what you'd get from previous AoMr games, as well as the loss of the advantage in taking Son of a Gun 3 before Dualgunner 1.

When you get Son of a Gun 2 in the vanilla 9.8.5 release, you get +4 to your pistol damage rolls, and this means that for a 2d5 pistol your damage is upped from 2-10 HP of damage to 6-14 HP of damage.  However, for a 2d4 pistol you only get your damage upped from 2-8 HP of damage to 6-12 HP of damage.  If after getting Son of a Gun 2, you choose Dualgunner 1, in the vanilla release you are shooting one pistol that does 6-14 HP of damage and another that only does 6-12 HP of damage.  This averages out to 10 damage from the 2d5 pistol and 9 damage from the 2d4 pistol for a total average damage of 19 HP of damage (per shooting of both pistols).  However, in the beta both pistols are 2d4, so both pistols have an average damage of 9 HP, which leaves you with a total damage of 18 HP per shooting of both pistols.  When you empty both clips (by firing both guns 6 times), in the vanilla release, you'll do on average 114 HP of damage (19 x 6), whereas in the beta you'll do on average 108 HP of damage (18 x 6).  In both versions, Son of a Gun 2 lowers the energy used (a marker of how long actions take; the lower the number the faster the action happens and the more time you have before the enemies react) from 1000 to 600, but the addition of a second gun with Dualgunner 1 multiplies the amount of energy used by 1.4, increasing the energy usage from 600 to 840 per fire action, and the total energy usage for emptying both clips is 5040 energy (840 x 6).

Compare this to what happens when you take Son of a Gun 3: You get +6 to your pistol damage rolls, and your shots take 400 energy (200 less than with Son of a Gun 2, and 440 less than with Son of a Gun 2/Dualgunner 1).  In the vanilla release, this is a superior choice even when taking reloading into account (reloading taking 1200 energy), because you are using a 2d5 pistol: With the same amount of energy it takes to fire 12 shots with Dualgunner 1 (5040 energy), you can fire 9.6 shots with Son of a Gun 3 (5040 - 1200 [one reload] = 3840, 3840 / 400 [energy it takes to fire with Son of a Gun 3] = 9.6 [total number of shots possible]), and while those 12 shots on average will add up to 114 HP of damage on average, the 9.6 shots you take with Son of a Gun 3 will add up to an average damage of 115.2 (damage of a 2d5 pistol after Son of a Gun 3 is 8-16 HP; average damage out of that is 12; 12 x 9.6 [the total number of shots you can take with 5040 energy] = 115.2).  However, with the beta your primary pistol is only 2d4, which means that with Son of a Gun 3 your damage range is 8-14 HP.  Average damage out of that range is 11, and 11 times 9.6 is 105.6 HP worth of damage, which is 2.4 HP less damage on average than going Son of a Gun 2/Dualgunner 1.

:sigh: I hope that explains it a little better; if it's the formatting that turns you off I'm afraid I may not be able to help you there... :/ Just the way I write.
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Supernaut

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Re: [M|96%|Win] YAFVP - shottyman path
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2007, 02:31 »

Cut the crap, SoaG (3) is better than SoaG (2) + DG ;)
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Zarin

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Re: [M|96%|Win] YAFVP - shottyman path
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2007, 06:54 »

You know, it's funny how a topic transforms :).  I mentioned that I want to take my AoMr to level 10 (not realizing that I've done it several times - it's dungeon level 10, not character level 10), and that was enough to sprout a whole discussion about traits in AoMr.  By the way, since then I managed to unlock Nightmare, taking my AoB to level 5 and discovering that it is indeed manageable under HNTR - please, don't laugh, I started playing this game a couple of months ago and I don't have enough time to fully explore it.

Meanwhile my last decent attempt at AoMr (I'm trying to win this time) ended miserably when a lever I hit summoned two Arachs and a Hell Knight in a very tight room on level 9 - going from 59% health to negatives in one turn is no fun :(.  I think a couple of levels in IM instead of TaN could have saved my ass.  Or not - against multishot Arachs TaN is supposed to work better, isn't it?
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