Chaosforge Forum

  • April 26, 2024, 14:27
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.



Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]

Author Topic: Dual weild  (Read 15518 times)

myronxwade

  • Private
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
Dual weild
« on: September 03, 2007, 16:09 »

how bout the ability to dual wield sorta like in ADOM where it says right hand or left hand?
Logged

DaEezT

  • Greater Elder
  • Colonel
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 565
    • View Profile
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2007, 23:11 »

That already exists for pistols (Dual Gunner).
But I don't think it would be a good idea for any other weapon.
Logged
"Morality is merely a convention with which men mutually agree to delude themselves. There are no moral facts, just preferences, and one is no better than any other."

Potman

  • Major
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2007, 01:02 »

Dualshotgunner might work yet. After all, two shotguns at the same time would just be like a single double shotgun, while two combat shotguns would only be slightly better, so it'dn't be too broken in the beginning. Two double shotguns, then again, would totally rip anything and make it all worthwhile in the end.

Also, I've always thought that dual wielding shouldn't decrease firing speed, but chance to hit.
Logged

Blade

  • Tester
  • Elder Chaos Guard
  • Brigadier General
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 691
    • View Profile
    • Upyachka
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2007, 05:12 »

Also, I've always thought that dual wielding shouldn't decrease firing speed, but chance to hit.

Chance to hit couldn't be less for shotguns. I don't know about firing speed, but i'm quite sure that reloading time should increase greatly.
Logged
Low orbit ion cannon damaged my brain!!1
Now i'm an idiot!1 Kill me, somebody!!11

Silhar

  • AliensRL Beta Tester
  • Brigadier General
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 667
  • Get psyched!
    • View Profile
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2007, 08:01 »

If you are talking serious, seconded ! I think it should decrease moving speed. You know, two shotties are heavy and hard to wield.

Yay, I'm Former Sarge !

Kornel Kisielewicz

  • God Hand
  • Apostle
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4562
    • View Profile
    • http://chaosforge.org/
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2007, 09:05 »

Actually the only dual wield I thought about was dual knives.

And there were some ideas for introducing a plasma pistol for AoMR fans, but I'm afraid to break the canon to much, and make AoMr way to easy :P
Logged
at your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz

Silhar

  • AliensRL Beta Tester
  • Brigadier General
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 667
  • Get psyched!
    • View Profile
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2007, 11:53 »

Hey, this sounds good :) But will it need an additional trait ? And how about a wielding a knife and another weapon ?

DaEezT

  • Greater Elder
  • Colonel
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 565
    • View Profile
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2007, 11:58 »

Dual knives also crossed my mind a few times, but the chainsaw is simply so much stronger than dual knives could be, and available quite early in the game, that it wouldn't make much sense, even in AoB.

The only really cool dual wield combo would be Double Shotgun + Chainsaw! :D
Groovy
Logged
"Morality is merely a convention with which men mutually agree to delude themselves. There are no moral facts, just preferences, and one is no better than any other."

Potman

  • Major
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2007, 13:30 »

Yes, but what kinds of benefits would that give?
Logged

Silhar

  • AliensRL Beta Tester
  • Brigadier General
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 667
  • Get psyched!
    • View Profile
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2007, 13:43 »

Hey, it IS possible. Just take a Juggler trait and swap DS into chainsaw when someone comes near you. Then swap back and blast him. Yeah, right, it takes two attacks. But seems familiar to DaEezT's combo.

DaEezT

  • Greater Elder
  • Colonel
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 565
    • View Profile
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2007, 13:48 »

Yes, but what kinds of benefits would that give?

http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php?topic=519.60
Automatic use of the off-hand chainsaw at melee range :p

Hey, it IS possible. Just take a Juggler trait and swap DS into chainsaw when someone comes near you.
But that would work with all weapons and thus wouldn't be Groovy ;D
Logged
"Morality is merely a convention with which men mutually agree to delude themselves. There are no moral facts, just preferences, and one is no better than any other."

Silhar

  • AliensRL Beta Tester
  • Brigadier General
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 667
  • Get psyched!
    • View Profile
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2007, 13:53 »

Hell, you are right. I'm not the only one who thinks that Shotties need an additional firepower. Even with using a chainee :).

Groovy !

I like this word :D.

DaEezT

  • Greater Elder
  • Colonel
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 565
    • View Profile
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2007, 14:26 »

Groovy !

I like this word :D.

lo and behold
Just in case someone missed the obvious reference ;D
Logged
"Morality is merely a convention with which men mutually agree to delude themselves. There are no moral facts, just preferences, and one is no better than any other."

Potman

  • Major
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2007, 14:37 »

Automatic use of the off-hand chainsaw at melee range :p

Can you reload your shotty at the same time?
Logged

archaon

  • Private FC
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2007, 16:35 »

I agree with the idea of wielding a pistol and knife. Makes a decent combination, IMO.
Logged

BDR

  • Elder
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 400
    • View Profile
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2007, 00:50 »

Pistol + knife hasn't been discussed in this thread at all, although that *does* bring to mind an image of Snake/Big Boss from MGS3 with his Close Combat training, which I have to admit is cool.  However, I'm not sure it'd really work well in DoomRL, unless you were able to do things like take former humans as hostages and fire at the other bastard demons in the area, culminating in the execution of the hostage when everyone else was dead.  The only bad side of enabling *that* would be a fairly significant loss in Doomyness (and people thought the Intuition 3 sniper gaming was bad.. :P).
Logged

Potman

  • Major
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2007, 01:59 »

I think you should be able to attach your knife to a weapon. Then it'd work kinda better.

Or even chainsaw. Like in Gears of War.
Logged

archaon

  • Private FC
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2007, 09:55 »

Good thinking Potman.

Bayonets would make a great addition. :)
Logged

RickVoid

  • Elder
  • Second Lieutenant
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 177
    • View Profile
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2007, 10:32 »

Good thinking Potman.

Bayonets would make a great addition. :)

Hee hee hee...

Oh no! Out of ammo!

Code: [Select]
#########
#.......#
#.......#
#..@.i..#
#.......#
#.......#
#########

DODGE!

Code: [Select]
#########
#.......#
#..@i...#
#.......#
#.......#
#.......#
#########

STAB!

Code: [Select]
#########
#.......#
#..@%...#
#.......#
#.......#
#.......#
#########

Muhahaha!
Logged
Campbell: Snake, press the action button.
Snake: ... What?
Campbell: The action button, on the control pad.
Snake: What!?

Const

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 56
    • View Profile
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2007, 10:36 »

but the chainsaw is simply so much stronger than dual knives could be,

First, you can find second knife on dlvl2, chainsaw - dlvl4 or more.
Second, Brute.
With Brute*3, knife deals 10-15 damage, and dual deals 20-30, 25 at average.
Chainsaw deals 13-33 damage, 23 at average.
Knives are better, isn't it?
Third, Berserker.
Chance of berserking must calculate for each knife separately, and this chance must be greater than for CS.
Logged
Badges [B/S/G/P/D]
16/12/5/1/0

Kornel Kisielewicz

  • God Hand
  • Apostle
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4562
    • View Profile
    • http://chaosforge.org/
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2007, 10:38 »

Hmm how about changing the Juggler trait. Instead of allowing to insta-swap it allows to do melee attacks automatically with a melee weapon wielded in the prepared slot? (without switching, and without time penalty)
Logged
at your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz

Potman

  • Major
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2007, 11:24 »

Hmm how about changing the Juggler trait. Instead of allowing to insta-swap it allows to do melee attacks automatically with a melee weapon wielded in the prepared slot? (without switching, and without time penalty)

Seconded. Do it, now.
Logged

Kornel Kisielewicz

  • God Hand
  • Apostle
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4562
    • View Profile
    • http://chaosforge.org/
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2007, 12:01 »

Can't :(. DoomRL's source is on the PC that broke, so I'll have to wait till it comes back from fixing -_-
Logged
at your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz

DaEezT

  • Greater Elder
  • Colonel
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 565
    • View Profile
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2007, 12:12 »

Hmm how about changing the Juggler trait. Instead of allowing to insta-swap it allows to do melee attacks automatically with a melee weapon wielded in the prepared slot? (without switching, and without time penalty)
I'd love you forever :D

but the chainsaw is simply so much stronger than dual knives could be,

First, you can find second knife on dlvl2, chainsaw - dlvl4 or more.
Second, Brute.
With Brute*3, knife deals 10-15 damage, and dual deals 20-30, 25 at average.
Chainsaw deals 13-33 damage, 23 at average.
Knives are better, isn't it?
Third, Berserker.
Chance of berserking must calculate for each knife separately, and this chance must be greater than for CS.

Finding a second knife (in case of AoB) before the chainsaw is up to luck and the RNG. I've played enough games without finding one prior to the court that I wouldn't count on it.

But let's assume you always find one on level 2:
1) Damage reduction from armor is applied to every attack separately, that means that dual knives will break even with the chainsaw against enemies with 2 armor and fall behind after that.
2) You assume that dual wielding does not have any penalties. If you take Dualgunner(1) as a reference you'd have to expect an attack time of 140%. which means that by the time a dual knife user attacks 10 times, dealing an average total of 250 in your case, the chainsaw user will have attacked 14 times, which means an average total of 322. Both numbers assume enemies with 0 armor.

And even if the Dualknife trait would grand you 100% attack speed at level 1 you'd still have to spent 4 skills (3*Brute + Dualknife) to end up with only 2 more damage on average and only against enemies with 0 armor. It would be much more efficient to take Berserk as your fourth skill, instead of Dualknife, since you're probably already at/past the chained court at clvl 4.

But to be fair, the point about the Berserking trigger is true.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 12:15 by DaEezT »
Logged
"Morality is merely a convention with which men mutually agree to delude themselves. There are no moral facts, just preferences, and one is no better than any other."

Potman

  • Major
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2007, 12:56 »

While we're on the subject, this would be a good place to again bring out my very first suggestion on these forums: Disable ranged attacks on melee. Because what use is knife-juggling or dual-knifing or bayoneting if you could just blast the enemy with plasma instead?

At the very least there could be a massive accuracy penalty against monsters in your reach. 50% or sumthin'.
Logged

DaEezT

  • Greater Elder
  • Colonel
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 565
    • View Profile
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2007, 13:14 »

While we're on the subject, this would be a good place to again bring out my very first suggestion on these forums: Disable ranged attacks on melee. Because what use is knife-juggling or dual-knifing or bayoneting if you could just blast the enemy with plasma instead?

At the very least there could be a massive accuracy penalty against monsters in your reach. 50% or sumthin'.

Seconded.
Logged
"Morality is merely a convention with which men mutually agree to delude themselves. There are no moral facts, just preferences, and one is no better than any other."

Const

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 56
    • View Profile
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2007, 03:25 »

Quote
Disable ranged attacks on melee. Because what use is knife-juggling or dual-knifing or bayoneting if you could just blast the enemy with plasma instead?

Disagree. In original, ranged attacks isn't disabled; and the game must be passable for non-melee character - Doom isn't a game about melee.
Logged
Badges [B/S/G/P/D]
16/12/5/1/0

Potman

  • Major
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2007, 05:28 »

Then allow Arachnotrons and Former Commandos to fry you with plasma on melee. Or make close combat in general stronger.
Logged

DisaffectedBeta

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 89
    • View Profile
Re: Dual wield
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2007, 11:06 »

The dual knives thing could be something where you actually hit with one in the direction you were aiming, and then the second knife seeks out another target if the first one was killed.  I guess if you're not doing a lot of damage this is sorta wasted, but it might help if you're surrounded.  Sorry if someone already mentioned that.  You could get bonuses to movement and/or dodge since you're relatively unencumbered, maybe.  Or it might be helpful if the whole knife throwing thing is made, just so you have an instant swap spare on hand if you can't use ranged weapons.

So far the pistol and the knife seem like the only dual wields that make any practical sense.  Doom was all about blood and guts, but it took great pains not to go too nuts on the human ability to hold a weapon and aim worth a damn. 
Logged

Kornel Kisielewicz

  • God Hand
  • Apostle
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4562
    • View Profile
    • http://chaosforge.org/
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2007, 17:23 »

Implemented the new Juggler :)
Logged
at your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz

Silhar

  • AliensRL Beta Tester
  • Brigadier General
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 667
  • Get psyched!
    • View Profile
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2007, 12:49 »

Long live the God Hand !

DisaffectedBeta

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 89
    • View Profile
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2007, 01:08 »

So you took out the insta-swap, then?  Or is there any way to get that?  I liked it, especially with a double shotgun, chaingun combo.  It did stretch DOOM credibility, though...
Logged

Kornel Kisielewicz

  • God Hand
  • Apostle
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4562
    • View Profile
    • http://chaosforge.org/
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2007, 10:10 »

I took it out. Swapping should be a tactical choice.
Logged
at your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz

RickVoid

  • Elder
  • Second Lieutenant
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 177
    • View Profile
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2007, 15:35 »

So... are you saving this for the next beta release, or should I go re-download the current release?
Logged
Campbell: Snake, press the action button.
Snake: ... What?
Campbell: The action button, on the control pad.
Snake: What!?

BDR

  • Elder
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 400
    • View Profile
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2007, 16:38 »

It'll be in the next beta; Kornel's modus operandi is to collect a bunch of improvements and release them all at once in a nice package rather than release one change at a time.

The livefeed is a good place to check for updates and new beta releases.
Logged

RickVoid

  • Elder
  • Second Lieutenant
  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 177
    • View Profile
Re: Dual weild
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2007, 17:18 »

That's what I figured, thanks.
Logged
Campbell: Snake, press the action button.
Snake: ... What?
Campbell: The action button, on the control pad.
Snake: What!?
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]