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[007bistromath]

Instead of damage being random, make it affected by how well you score on your to-hit roll. This way Eagle Eye can do something for shotguns without screwing around with the numbers directly. A really awful "miss," for a shotgun, would deal minimum damage regardless of distance, while a really solid hit will deal the max even if you're far away.

PS: I don't think this should be just for shotguns, either. It seems basically appropriate for any of the non-explosive weapons. Higher roll = better hit. If done correctly, this should leave the average damage of a chaingun or plasma rifle basically unchanged: there may be a very small bias towards higher damage, but the biggest factor is still that some shots which wouldn't hit now do. Those will generally be at the lower end of the range, so it balances out.

[Potman]

Although this makes compelete sense, I've never heard any RPG or other game whatsoever to make use of this concept. Let's bring out Critical Hits instead, that'd be simpler.

[007bistromath]

So, blaze the trail, I say. This is basically the logical extension of a crit system anyway. Having a level at which your damage increases dramatically is, I think, an amount of inconsistency which is rather uncharacteristic of the cinematic-style "big cone of hurt" shotgun.

[DaEezT]

Well, that's how Shadowrun does it and that's pretty much what I proposed for AliensRL because I personally never liked damage dice :p

[007bistromath]

I actually do like damage dice. Enough, in fact, that I would still want the damage ranges represented as xdy even though that's no longer the operating mechanic. It just feels fun somehow, even if there are some systems (case in point!) where it isn't appropriate. I just think that this particular game, as a result of the way shotguns work and how that affects trait choice, would benefit from this alternate damage model.

[DaEezT]

Every game with damage dice would benefit from a different model :p

[007bistromath]

Disagree! Even if it is, in most cases, the more logical way to do things, in a system which is purposefully more game than sim, it can be fun. In systems where attack effects are generally homogenous, as is usually the case, it is also often just more expedient. The problem is that it breaks down when you get something like what we have here, with weapons that use fundamentally different mechanics, a rather unusual thing for a roguelike.

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Well, that's how Shadowrun does it and that's pretty much what I proposed for AliensRL because I personally never liked damage dice :p

Well, AliensRL DOES use this system -- all damage for weapons is flat, modified by the toHit roll.

[007bistromath]

Yeah, I could tell it was, based on how a full spray from the MP5 can sometimes leave a juvenile dark green if you don't wait for them to get right up in your face. I think you may have overdone it a tiny bit in Aliens, actually. @_@

PS: Though I have to admit, for all my frustration with that game, its idiosyncrasies really do make it feel like Aliens. (Or I think it does, anyway. I haven't watched most of those since I was too young to remember.) You have a real knack for flavorful design, and alot of my whining is just trying to find a balance between that flavor and general playability. I mean, there's nothing more unDoomish than getting bored and leaving because you've started numbering your AoB attempts. :p

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

AoB isn't supposed to be easy, y'know :P. You're going up against the forces of hell without guns -- that'd I call suicide ^_^

[007bistromath]

Right, I got that, just... I think there should be a little bit more of a happy medium. There's "not supposed to be easy," and then there's "quit 30 times in a row to get more than two medpacks and then die before the Chained Court anyway because you walked* into five Lost Souls on level four."

*Or spawned for that matter. Happened to me twice tonight! ;_;

[ul]

actually, the influence from to-hit throw to damage is quite known in different rpg systems.

and there are two ways to do it. (at least to my knowledge)
first, there's simple additional damage from extra good to-hit rolls.
i'm not familiar with shadowrun, but i know a nice implementation of such rule from fading suns system.

second, some systems actually use hit locations and attack roll determines where the damage goes.
and if you recieve a good shot to the head,
you are done. even if the same shot to the leg would have just made you unable to run and walk fast.
somewhat less know, but very detailed free rpg system called quest used that kind of mechanics.

personally, while i like damage location and detail, the first option would be so much simpler to implement
and smoother to run. for me, gaining something from an extra good attack would be a matter of fairness.

[007bistromath]

Hit location systems are annoyingly complex, a bitch to code, and somewhat off-flavor I think. What I am suggesting is basically your first suggestion, except that I don't want extra damage. That would be crits, and I don't think we need crits here. I'll explain this with a simplified model, since I don't know the ins and outs of DoomRL's specific system.

Let's say that to determine whether you hit something or not, you roll a d20, and hit on 11 or better. If your weapon does 1-10 damage, then rolling an 11 always does one, rolling 12 always does two, and so on, until a perfect hit scores max damage. With a trait increasing your chance to hit, you basically bring up the floor. At +4, 7 or better counts as a hit, and you score max damage on 16 or higher.

Note that distance still affects shotguns in basically the same way it does now, since there is a distance penalty on to-hit rolls. It might be slightly less extreme unless damage for weak hits were scaled down quite sharply, though.

[Blade]

I like damage dice and i don't like damage affected by to-hit.)) If you are shooting imp from 2 meters with a double shotgun, he's(or she's) gonna be pretty dead, and it doesn't matter, have you Eagle Eye, or are you almost blind, damage should be the same because you hit him(or her) with same amount of lead. You could miss on that distance only if you are very unlucky(critical miss. I like criticals)), then he will recieve only few damage, or even absolutely nothing. But shotgun should be more useful, it's too weak now. I think that we just need to increase it's damage on zero distance and to have greater reduction of it per every square from you, so shotgun will be VERY dangerous in close-combat, but weak on distance.

[007bistromath]

1: You don't understand physics. If you're talking about a real shotgun, then sure, you're getting hit by the same amount of lead. And in fact, that's true if you're several dozen yards away, or else you wouldn't be able to use a shotgun to hunt birds. They fly in the air, you know. We're not talking about a real one though, we're talking about a movie shotgun that has a frikkin' 120 degree spread. You'd better believe that thing is going to have some variance in how much you take.

2: Shotguns are not weak. If you make them anymore powerful, the double shotgun will basically be a BFG with a hundred shots worth of ammo.

3: Shotguns are already weak enough at distance that it can be a tough choice between them and chainguns. Make their damage scale anymore, and you'll have to carry both around. I don't know about you, but there's not enough room in my backpack for that.