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Author Topic: Hello (and suggestions)  (Read 13919 times)

Daqin

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Hello (and suggestions)
« on: November 26, 2007, 05:55 »

Hello everyone.
I'd like to introduce myself because I'd like to become kinda active here and give my support in the ways I can.
I fell in love with roguelikes instantly when I first played and I was with the roguelikes for many years. I paused for some time and after checking new things AlienRL got my affection imediately. 5 star type in my book. I was sorta crazy with games since I was less than 10. Especialy with creating games. Many kinds, from board and rpg to writing games on on older computer machines . Unfortunately with PC I was too busy with playing (time of old PC short before Pentium) and the drawback is I didn't practice any programing language and can't write anything (mostly I was making lots of scenarios, mods, alterations etc. to already made games). However I'd like to give my support if it can be useful in any way.
Here, my few short suggestions about AlienRL (I have much more but don't have time now to get all out of my mind now because I am traveling):

First thing is shoting and damage mechanism. It seems that distance and skill affects accuracy of the shot. That's naturally obvious, however the way it affects hits is kinda odd. For example, if I shot burst of ammo at target some distance away some shots will miss but more often almost all the shots will barely hit or, say, scratch the target. If we look at this in realistic way then every bullet has to hit close to the outline of the target not too far away to inside (and get deep into the body) and not outside (because it will miss),so to scratch the target with every bullet from a burst is kinda something very difficult to do and it would be masterful shot or maybe ..a miracle. If we think what would happen if you lack of skill and shot burst at direction of some target we could imagine that some would miss, some would hit more or less in the middle, some could scratch and even some could criticaly hit. So, what I think, alternative to current system would be that the more skill and closer the target the more control you have (which means good hits). Less skill you have or more distance means less control (which gives RANDOM results). More chance for miss or random hits could be determined by how much actual area of target is likely to be hit (there is more solid body to be accidentaly hit than elusive outline that could result in scratch or barely hit) and the more distant the target -the less actual area to be hit at all..
 
Second thing that comes to my mind atm is game goal (propably temporary anyway). To this I also come with common sense point of view. Lets say If I was that marine from crashed ship.. then, honestly, I would screw the queen and focus on finding way to escape. Queen could be secondary goal if I felt she must pay (but that could be done from orbit anyway) or when if she stands in my way. So, I'd also change word MISSIONS to QUESTS (because you don't really have any mission except to see what distress call is all about), and if you plan to do something and you are looking for solution then you are actually questing.

Maybe it would be more challenging and atmosperic if there was option to start the game in relistic or movie mode or something, where weapons and aliens do 5 times (or so) more damage (which propably means that if hunter gets to you then you are gone.. just like in th movie).

Generaly pistols are much less accurate than rifles (except when burst shot, when the rifle kicks back, in such case avery following shot after the first one is less accurate progresively).

Maybe armors could lose durability and be finaly broken and useless (this way there would be use for other copies of armor you are wearing)

I have LOTS of suggestion about graphics (actually -color play) but right now I will just mention one or two.
What about if tiles on the edge of the sight area were almost black (almost invisible). Those closer to character would gradually be brighter. Things and aliens would change darkness also, which could result in atmospheric appearance, just as if aliens just came out of the shadows. However, this would mean that LOS distance is actually light intensity. With this thing, there also could be areas lightened up along corridor walls to represent lights on the walls (that could also increase your loss), or maybe light up even more immediate area around the character to represent armor's, helmet's or weapon light. Or even in such case light up only half of the area in direction that was your last move to represent front of the character and the light's aim (which brings another idea- for example with SHIFT and movement keys you could rotate your sight direction and eg. look back without moving)
For present moment some easier stuff: light up character when firing to simulate flash of weapon fire. In more complex idea shoting could light up for a moment whole area and maybe increase for a blink of eye LOS to allow see unseen.. (go into to dark room and light it up with your gun fire..)
Atributes:
Perception -it could affect how far away from you hunters appear. Also maybe increase LOS ( together with color idea it would make shading out more gradual)

Technical -I think, technical doesn't really affect your familiarity with a weapon and decrase reloading time (but I guess it is also temporary), instead weapon skill could do that.  However, no other alternative atm from my side that could be more useful in present state of AlienRL.

weapon skills- could also affect your aiming time (faster shots). That brings another idea: when aiming, instead hiting F again to fire a weapon, you could hit wait key and ,without going out from aiming mode, skip one turn to hit F and fire in the following for increased accuracy (aimed shot)
« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 05:58 by Daqin »
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Daqin

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continuation
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2007, 06:04 »

Fitness -maybe also add very slight increase in HP, and very little chance to dodge attack.

Sounds: I believe sound is even more influencing than a graphics for creating 'atmosphere'. The advice from my side is to add as much sounds as it makes sense. For the moment there could be so utility sound for picking, droping, etc. items instead of reload. I like the mods, music! (I was making mods too :). Maybe add sound for opening and closing automatic doors, elevator, add claw reaping through armor and flesh sound to current alien attack. I also wonder how would footstep sound work (have you seen Hired Guns?). Maybe footstep (very short sound) every move would flood ears, so do it every second or so. Maybe it is worth trying. Maybe add heavy breathing or heart fast beating when character is low on health.

Items.
-Movement detector. I am just thinking how would it change the game. It could change screen and show things when used, or show marks on the main screen where alien MOVED. Anyway, the sound of movement detector would add to atmosphere, I believe. From my point of view, the good way to do it is to make it to be working on the main screen. It would show 'blips' around character (for aliens in range that moved) every few turns. The 'blip' would flash up and fade out just like on the detector screen, so you would have to actually remember where it was (technical problem with animation delaying play could be solved by making it interuptable at any moment by keyboard input)

flares- to get LOS to some areas.

Other:

Maybe make these larva things that stick on face. They could die from just 1 hit of any weapon, however if they get to you and your character don't evade something terrible could happen. Not sure what could that be.  Maybe you lose consciousness and any alien nearby will got you, if not then you wake up and maybe hatch later.. (and change game goals) ?

quests- maybe repair ship ? Get parts from different towers. Disable autodefense systems and fly away. Or get to colony ship and activate it. Maybe call for help and find food and secure area you could wait for it. And
when help arrives you would see fightiong marines here and there..
Maybe make some rooms that are sealed of from aliens and locked. Like storage rooms with stuff. Technical skill could get in to unlock these.

Computer terminals- with enough of technical skill you could activate cameras in rooms on the level and look if it is worth going there (safe way to find your pulse rifle or some ammo), unlocking or locking unlocked doors to cut off aliens.

Alien entering areas- some spots that aliens come from (spawn) which could be secured, destroyed.

Acid burned holes- you could jump to lower level through these (with health loss) in hard situations. That also brings thing to mind that you could take damage from acid when firing at aliens in melee range.

OK. Thats it for now. I like to know what you think of some (propably many are not new anyway).

Thanks, thats my few cents to keep it up.

P.S. Pozdrowienia, milo widziec rodakow w akcji..
« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 07:16 by Daqin »
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Hello (and suggestions)
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2007, 18:50 »

* Kornel Kisielewicz was hit with a wall of text for full damage!

First of all thanks for the kind words about AliensRL, I'm sure to  continue working on it :). All support and comments are welcome!

About the damage -- the word "scratch" is just a way to convey the information that the shot wasn't a dead-eye. Compared to many other games AliensRL has a very realistic damage/shot mechanic, and works similarily to what you described. But it's true, that there is no chance to do a critical shot from a distance with low skill. Why does it work like that? A question of balance. The game is much more tactical and less random that way.

There will be several missions planned and ways to escape implemented. The main point will be that leaving the tower is simply suicide, because there's no food and no other life on the planet. So the only way to escape will be either by activating the comm array distress signal at the comm-center at the top of the civilian tower, or running away using a shuttle from the hangar (top of the military tower). All other missions will be bonus (blowing up the complex, or killing the queen).

As for the word "missions" -- I used it mainly because it sounds more Sci-Fi then quests :P. Also "quests" sounds very uplifted, the word "tasks" would be much more suited than quests. I'd prefer to stick to "missions" however.

Realistic mode? *giggles* You mean "SUICIDE" mode :P

Armors don't have durability because there is no item system in the game yet, so the game can't tell wether an armor on the floor is broken or not.

All your graphics suggestions assume more than 16 colors, what in the current situation is not planned.

Technical's bonus is temporary -- it's a placeholder until I implement the technical tasks.

I like the aimed shot idea!

As for the sounds -- I do not make sounds myself -- they're all free stuff found on the web -- so if you find anything good, then please post a link here or send it to me :) (GenTechJ found all the current sounds except for the abta.mod and the ATT voice).

Movement detector is planned. However it's a big PITA implementation and design-wise :P. For example the "every few turns" thing is bad, because it would encourage lighthouse movement -- blip, one step, wait, blip...

Facehuggers *are* planned as well as computer terminals ;]

Thanks for all the great ideas, i wzajemne pozdrowienia xP.
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Daqin

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Re: Hello (and suggestions)
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2007, 22:28 »

About the damage -- the word "scratch" is just a way to convey the information that the shot wasn't a dead-eye. Compared to many other games AliensRL has a very realistic damage/shot mechanic, and works similarily to what you described. But it's true, that there is no chance to do a critical shot from a distance with low skill. Why does it work like that? A question of balance. The game is much more tactical and less random that way.

Well, may be. But somehow it appears different. I mean there is no really difference if I shot at something from 1 meter away or from the other side of the room if it gets hit, it gets hit. But it seems aliens take much less damage if they are hit from afar. Doesn't make sense. From close range you could hit it more likely in some vital areas for crits or good damage, however average damage shouldn't be affected by range. Maybe make more misses instead (by the way, maybe more misses' animations that go through tile with alien, past it).
:) And random things are nice (can surprise) and considering and taking into account random factors is also strategy and tactics.. ;)

Quote
As for the word "missions" -- I used it mainly because it sounds more Sci-Fi then quests :P. Also "quests" sounds very uplifted, the word "tasks" would be much more suited than quests. I'd prefer to stick to "missions" however.

Yeah, missions sound more SF, and maybe quests are missunderstood because of all RP. My point was that missions are some tasks you voluntary take. Tasks are something you have to do or else... Quests are something you seek or search for.

Quote
All your graphics suggestions assume more than 16 colors, what in the current situation is not planned

Ah, crap. Didn't think of that. I thought in year 2007 roguelikes advance into 256 or more. That could be good anyway. Maybe I'll show what I have in mind and make some pictures with screens of AlienRL with altered graphics, if I have time. You really can make tricks with colors. Maybe consider giving it more color.

Quote
Realistic mode? *giggles* You mean "SUICIDE" mode :P

Exactly. It could be interesting.

Quote
Movement detector is planned. However it's a big PITA implementation and design-wise :P. For example the "every few turns" thing is bad, because it would encourage lighthouse movement -- blip, one step, wait, blip...

What's wrong if someone do this kind of movement anyway ? It doesn't make sense to wait for one ping after you just got one or wait for ping every two or few steps because aliens could change places anyway. However I wonder what idea you have in mind.

Quote
* Kornel Kisielewicz was hit with a wall of text for full damage!

Well, walls don't attack.. ;)

Thanks for comments.

P.S. I wonder what others think.

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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Hello (and suggestions)
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2007, 22:42 »

Well, may be. But somehow it appears different. I mean there is no really difference if I shot at something from 1 meter away or from the other side of the room if it gets hit, it gets hit. But it seems aliens take much less damage if they are hit from afar. Doesn't make sense. From close range you could hit it more likely in some vital areas for crits or good damage, however average damage shouldn't be affected by range. Maybe make more misses instead (by the way, maybe more misses' animations that go through tile with alien, past it).
:) And random things are nice (can surprise) and considering and taking into account random factors is also strategy and tactics.. ;)
Well this is a thing that makes combat predictible, and surprisingly predictible combat is a good thing. At least in this game :).

Ah, crap. Didn't think of that. I thought in year 2007 roguelikes advance into 256 or more. That could be good anyway. Maybe I'll show what I have in mind and make some pictures with screens of AlienRL with altered graphics, if I have time. You really can make tricks with colors. Maybe consider giving it more color.
I know it's cool, I made some full color tech demos once. Unfortunately text-mode is 16 color, and we can't do anything about that. And unfortunately non-text mode looks bad on many PCs, not to mention that you can't play in a console (and via SSH).

Quote
Realistic mode? *giggles* You mean "SUICIDE" mode :P

Exactly. It could be interesting.
And rather *short* :P

What's wrong if someone do this kind of movement anyway ? It doesn't make sense to wait for one ping after you just got one or wait for ping every two or few steps because aliens could change places anyway. However I wonder what idea you have in mind.
DaEezT might explain that better, but globaly, lighthouse movements become tedious and boring after some time.

Quote
* Kornel Kisielewicz was hit with a wall of text for full damage!

Well, walls don't attack.. ;)

Text walls, similarily to living walls -- do :P


P.S. I wonder what others think.

Yeah, me too -_-

Unfortunately, it's been quiet here for a time, so people have to gather again -_-

HEAR THAT, YOU LURKERS? :P
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Daqin

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Re: Hello (and suggestions)
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2007, 00:44 »

Well this is a thing that makes combat predictible, and surprisingly predictible combat is a good thing. At least in this game :).

Not when suprisingly predictible combat does not enough damage to save your *ss :D. I'll try to explain my feelings about that. This how it goes: generally I try to think of alterations to the game in a way to give it even more joy if possible. And when I fire at alien some distance away it often makes me sad because even when I manage to hit it causes little damage and is waste of ammo. Yeah that's sad. That's why my point is to make it work more realisticaly, even if balance is at risk (however I would never say that it is at risk because there are tons of other random factors, and myself, I would reverse things: make combat less predictible to make finding some items or other non-combat things more predictible)

Quote
I know it's cool, I made some full color tech demos once. Unfortunately text-mode is 16 color, and we can't do anything about that. And unfortunately non-text mode looks bad on many PCs, not to mention that you can't play in a console (and via SSH).

Mm yea, that's bad. Maybe make experimental version in one, nice color only ? And see how all shadings and light-simulation  system makes a difference ? And, yeah it is cool. I was making graphics stuff too. Actually I was studying art/painting a little and I discovered that you may screw the form and create real tricks with color alone. That's why I thought that roguelikes could be very good place to make use of it.


Quote
And rather *short* :P

Maybe.. or maybe not. ;>

Quote
DaEezT might explain that better, but globaly, lighthouse movements become tedious and boring after some time.

Yes, that's why I said it doesn't make sense and it couldn't be really useful to walk this way anyway. Then why worry about that ?
 
Quote
Text walls, similarily to living walls -- do :P

Heheh 8D.. In such case I would say you cannot throw them or wield them.. -hit with them. :P

Quote
HEAR THAT, YOU LURKERS? :P
:)

Thanks
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Adral

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Re: Hello (and suggestions)
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2007, 10:15 »

Unfortunately, it's been quiet here for a time, so people have to gather again -_-

HEAR THAT, YOU LURKERS? :P

Adral reporting for duty, for the Glory of the Emperor!

I'd really like to both:
a) be able to play the game without problems. (I have played AliensRL for like 5 minutes)
b) have enough time to consider everything that was posted here. I have always liked discussing suggestions for roguelikes.

So this is a post of "I am not dead, and I'm listening" more than anything else. :P Sorry but I really cannot say much more for now :-/. Keep discussing, though! I'll be sure to check this again when I have some spare time.
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zaimoni

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Re: Hello (and suggestions)
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2007, 19:43 »

What's wrong if someone do this kind of movement anyway ? It doesn't make sense to wait for one ping after you just got one or wait for ping every two or few steps because aliens could change places anyway. However I wonder what idea you have in mind.
DaEezT might explain that better, but globaly, lighthouse movements become tedious and boring after some time.[/quotes]
Besides driving attention to detail up (and consequent tedium), there's a matter of time scale.

Requiring lighthouse movements doesn't make sense at time scales above a second or so.  And I don't see the player running in this game, but rather walking briskly and alertly -- so the "turn precision" is low enough that we can just assume lighthouse movements and give the player 360-degree field of view.
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Daqin

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Re: Hello (and suggestions)
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2007, 22:52 »

Requiring lighthouse movements doesn't make sense at time scales above a second or so.  And I don't see the player running in this game, but rather walking briskly and alertly -- so the "turn precision" is low enough that we can just assume lighthouse movements and give the player 360-degree field of view.

Hmm, I assumed that movement detector will work in 360-degree anyway. I got the point now. Thought lighthouse movements is step-and-wait for ping thing.
I copy that to give player 360-degree field of view (solves many problems)
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Daqin

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screenshot
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2007, 03:47 »

Here, in one color, no walls and things out of LOS invisible.
http://myfreefilehosting.com/f/9cf15fe9c8_0.01MB
Don't say it gives no claustrophobia..
I didn't have much time to do it better (I am travelling, almost out of money, no return ticket, had to sell laptop, edited this picture in a cafe with windows paint).

This one can go with 8 colors only, so other 8 for different things (or for smoother effect)
Maybe I'll do later one with more LOS and lights on walls.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2007, 07:33 by Daqin »
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Newts Revenge

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Re: screenshot
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2008, 15:16 »

Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz
Unfortunately, it's been quiet here for a time, so people have to gather again -_-

HEAR THAT, YOU LURKERS? :P

Still here, just waiting for a new version or an announcement :P
(And downloading again on another PC)

Don't say it gives no claustrophobia..

Very nice!
That look seems just perfect for the game.
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Daqin

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Re: screenshot
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2008, 04:03 »

Don't say it gives no claustrophobia..

Very nice!
That look seems just perfect for the game.


Yea, I was thinking that could make perfect atmosohere for Alien. If made well this light 'system' could look much better than in my (made in cafe with windows paint) picture. There could be light on walls imitated by lighted up areas radiating from the wall and expanding your loss, aliens, barrels and character could cast a shadow (1 or 2 tiles behind him could be darker,in oposite deriction to source of light), kinda dynamic light system. Shoting could light up area and expand los for a moment and be treated as source of light for that instant (and make things cast shadows). You could enter room and light it up with gun fire.. or barrel explosion.
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Newts Revenge

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Re: Hello (and suggestions)
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2008, 18:03 »

Ah.

I hate to rain on this parade, but I've just noticed that that scheme won't work... The windows console only has 2 shades of green, light and dark. That's all.

(In fact it only has 2 shades of any colour...)

So to do what you've drawn in that image would require a tileset. Without one, you could compromise by having an inner circle of brightness and an outer circle of dark colours, but you wouldn't get that nice gradient.

Come to think of it, there's something a bit ridiculous about the idea of a Roguelike with dynamic lighting and shadowing effects... Maybe it needs normal mapping and bloom as well? :)

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Daqin

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Re: Hello (and suggestions)
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2008, 23:48 »

Come to think of it, there's something a bit ridiculous about the idea of a Roguelike with dynamic lighting and shadowing effects... Maybe it needs normal mapping and bloom as well? :)

Roguelikes in the past didn't have sound. Now, to me, roguelikes with sound add much to atmosphere.
I didn't use 3d term: lighting system, but rather called it light-system which describes what I ment. Would you reply If I used different word (for example: brightness adjusting), so it couldn't conjure anything you could compare to, and judge ? What you find ridiculous about it ? I rather find it inspiring. Maybe, actually, ridiculous was your thought assuming that it was in attempt of imitation something from 'bigger screen', because name matches.. So you are laughing/smiling at your own thoughts and announce it to everyone (who can read btwn the lines), because you actually believe that situation is exactly as it looks in your mind, which gives you motivation to speak and point silly things out. And since this idea/judgment was created in your mind, it is clear it is conditioned to create silly looking things which you project on outside objects, and by doing so you only speak about your tendencies and way of seeing world. None of this view has actually anything to do with what is going on (in other peoples minds) and doesn't describe anything that is happening. It is in your mind only. Notice how your view changes when affected by condition to create judgment/compare.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2008, 23:58 by Daqin »
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Rabiat

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Re: Hello (and suggestions)
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2008, 04:09 »

Quote from: Daqin
So you are laughing/smiling at your own thoughts and announce it to everyone (who can read btwn the lines), because you actually believe that situation is exactly as it looks in your mind, which gives you motivation to speak and point silly things out. And since this idea/judgment was created in your mind, it is clear it is conditioned to create silly looking things which you project on outside objects, and by doing so you only speak about your tendencies and way of seeing world.

Spoken like a true philospher. Lighten up. ;)

Quote from: Newts Revenge
Come to think of it, there's something a bit ridiculous about the idea of a Roguelike with dynamic lighting and shadowing effects... Maybe it needs normal mapping and bloom as well? :)

The representation of a roguelike environment is too coarse to apply detailed effects, but dynamic lighting makes sense. I tried static light sources, and they look terribly unnatural if the environment changes. If a door opens or a wall is blown up, one expects to see a light beam falling though the gap if there is a light source on the other side. This could also affect gameplay (e.g. if NPCs can see the PC from a greater distance when the PC is in a lit area). Fortunately a standard FOV algorithm is all you need to make static light sources dynamic.
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