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Author Topic: Tough As Nails Need Improvement Relative to Ironman?  (Read 2850 times)

Sdlonyer55

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Tough As Nails Need Improvement Relative to Ironman?
« on: December 05, 2007, 07:28 »

It's my humble opinion that Ironman is almost always superior to Tough as Nails, unless perhaps you are deep in Arachnotron/Former Captain/Commando territory. I see a few problems with the skill relative to Ironman.

Ironman:

Decreases likelihood of 'whammy' deaths (barrels, unlucky rolls, multiple enemy shots during reload etc.)
Increases Effectiveness of all Medkits, Health Globes, Supercharges, which in turn...
Increases Inventory space (you carry more health in the same space)
Not trivialized by good armor or enemies with low damage (in fact, good armor multiplies its positive effects)
Small boost to current health when selected

Tough As Nails:

Can potentially save you more total life points between levels after first few character levels (offset by reduced healing efficiency relative to Ironman)
Especially good against Arachnotrons, Captains and Commandos, all of which are typically not a great threat, due to approaching Arachnotrons in melee and typically 1 or 2 rounding the Captains/Commandos.
Highly marginalized against certain high damage enemies and attacks (virtually useless against Cyberdemon, Barons, Hell Knights, Mancubi, Arch-Viles. Marginal against demons.)
Highly marginalized when using Blue/Red/Angelic Armor or Longinus Spear.
No immediate benefit to life when taken.

I'm not sure I have a good suggestion as 2 armor per level would clearly be too strong, and I am assuming fractional armor does not exist. The only thought I had was to make Tough as Nails substantially increase the durability of your armor, or the amount it blocks even at lower health (ie Red Armor still blocks 4 until 40%.) I'm not quite sure that makes it much more powerful at all, but if you feel the power difference is pretty minor, it might be just the modification needed to keep it useful. Another possibility, although less in line with the spirit of the skill, might be to merge some of the effects of one of the most underused (in my experience) skills, Badass. Perhaps level 1 Tough as Nails allows you to maintain health of 110% without dropping, level 2 120%, or can effect knockback (something I don't see as too useful in my games.)
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Tough As Nails Need Improvement Relative to Ironman?
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2007, 14:18 »

3 TaN + AA = -9 of all damage. One Ironman gives +10 hp, 3TaNAA gives -9 hp on each shot. I wouldn't call that trivial :P.

Anyone else would like to comment on that?
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Malek Deneith

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Re: Tough As Nails Need Improvement Relative to Ironman?
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2007, 14:48 »

Personally I consider TaN superior for just the reason Kornel pointed out - maxxed TaN is 3 points of armor you never loose - multiply it by number of times you'll get hit through the 25 (?) levels of the game and see how much hurt it saves you. Ironman, while certainly a very good traing is only good if you have medkits at hand - if you're stuck with little healing (which CAN happen on deeper levels) those extra 30 hp won't hold you long - on the other hand those 3 points of armor will count every time your life is on stake.
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Sdlonyer55

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Re: Tough As Nails Need Improvement Relative to Ironman?
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2007, 09:45 »

While I won't argue with your observations, I'm not sure they quite address my main issue. I think my big problem with TaN is it, as I noted earlier, gives drastically different benefits based on the enemy target, and it can theoretically sometimes give no help whatsoever (under the assumption that you can't damage reduce past 1 damage/hit) . It is obviously highly useful if you are fighting something with rapid fire (Arach, Commando, Captain) unless you are already hitting the armor limit, which I think may occur with just a Red Armor with captains.

For simplicity's sake, I'll assume a captain's chaingun does the standard 1d6 damage. If I understand armor correctly, that makes only two possible damage outcomes if you are hit wearing Red Armor.

1d6 = (1, 2, 3, 4, or 5) - 4 = 1
1d6 = (6) - 4 = 2

This means that only 1 out of 6 shots does level 1 TaN even do *anything* whatsoever, and any levels beyond 1 are totally wasted. A 50% reduction in damage 1/6th of the time leads to barely an 8% reduction in damage taken, against what would be argued as one of the enemies against whom TaN is most effective. The Arachnotron and Commando damage tables would similarly cause at least a modest percentage of hits where TaN is totally wasted. I know you can't plan around a Red Armor all the time, but even if you make it a blue armor you are still faced with TaN doing absolutely nothing against 50% of the shots you are hit by, in the case of the commando. Of course, this is to say nothing of those enemies where TaN is at an even greater disadvantage because of single, substantially higher damage projectiles, which in my opinion also make up the majority of the main threats throughout the game. I haven't taken the trait too frequently as of late, but I don't recall noticing much help from it at all against Barons, Viles, and Cacos.

Now, it's true that sometimes Ironman isn't particularly helpful for one level, but it's not too common that you are completely out of healing items and operating on the skin of your teeth, and many times when you are there neither of these traits is going to save you, so it's not entirely fair to say Ironman always loses in that position. Though Ironman is more of a no brainer when you have 9 large med packs of course, I think when resources are low it is often just as important to get the most out of every small/large life globe you manage to stumble upon.

After reflecting on it a bit more, I think it's a bit less underpowered than I initially thought, but I think my suggestion of having it improve armor's effect is quite workable. What this does it take the times when TaN is at its greatest disadvantage (when you have heavy armor) and therefore least useful, and give it a supplementary use that doesn't fully stack. The idea would be if you have, say, Red Armor that is trivializing your armor from TaN to some extent, that the effect of increasing your armor's durability would counteract that weakness. If you are gaining all the benefit from TaN because you are short on armor, the armor durability effect will be of less use to you. I don't think this would add too much total benefit to TaN while keeping it a more level choice across the board.
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DaEezT

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Re: Tough As Nails Need Improvement Relative to Ironman?
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2007, 14:57 »

Without going into any particular details:
IM and TaN are both fine as they are right now. Their usefulness varies based on play style and game type (difficulty/challenges/misc). I can think up a hundred scenarios for each of them where one would be superior over the other, but at the end of the day they are both about equal.
The only noteworthy difference I see is that IM is more useful for an experienced player than TaN.
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