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Author Topic: Reaction time  (Read 3390 times)

Thomas

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Reaction time
« on: December 22, 2007, 18:29 »

This problem rarely arises late game (When you don't see imps and sergeants that much, and even if you did you can easily handle them), but is INSANELY annoying (and tends to kill a lot of my HMP games).

Consider this scenario (As this will come up probably 1-3 times in every game)

Code: [Select]
###########
.#......i.#
@+...h...h#
.#..i.....#
###########

Assume the hs are all former sergeants.
What's going to happen when you open the door? 1-2 imps blast you (5-10 damage), the closer sergeant fires (8 damage) and the further one does as well (3 damage). That's 16-21 damage all up and even if you were sitting pretty on 50% HP you're now at death's door.

With the implementation of packs (which for some reason has slightly changed the placement algorithm in early levels) this happens far too often and in a AoI/AoB game (the 2 I'm attempting to beat right now) this is absolutely devistating. In AoI you can't afford to lose 40% HP just by opening a door. In AoB, this suddenly becomes an "Oh no, run away" situation so you lose 40% HP but gain no items or XP.

Hence it seems only fair to add a reaction time and stop them from firing before you can tell that they're there. Let's say 5-10 ticks so you at least have one action (Like closing the door for example) before they start slaughtering you.

Oh, and late-game you can have this happen with cacos and barons! Unless you're on full HP when it happens that's basically going to instantly kill you!
« Last Edit: December 22, 2007, 18:33 by Thomas »
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Blade

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Re: Reaction time
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2007, 18:43 »

I'm not going to agree or disagree with you because it's 4.35 now and i'm too lazy to think now.) But i'll post my way to deal with this problem.

First of all, change situation to this:

Code: [Select]
###########
@#......i.#
.+...h...h#
.#..i.....#
###########

What will happen, you will open door, imp will see you, probably fire at you, in worst case he will destroy the wall(but others won't fire anyway). But it's 5-10 damage(2 hits happens VERY rare, so it's only 5 damage in most cases), not 16-21.

Even better decision(not for AoB):

Code: [Select]
##################
@.......#......i.#
.......0+...h...h#
........#..i.....#
##################

What will happen, you will blow door, damage Former Sergeant and Imp pretty much, and you will have right to shoot first when they will enter your LoS to look, who is so smart to shoot barrels.)
« Last Edit: December 22, 2007, 18:46 by Blade »
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Malek Deneith

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Re: Reaction time
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2007, 18:50 »

While I agree that example 1 is good (ah, the old ADOM habit of opening doors diagonally - I must get that one back) second one is a no-no as you can destroy valuable equipment by barreling places you havn't seen.
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Thomas

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Re: Reaction time
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2007, 18:52 »

I'm not going to agree or disagree with you because it's 4.35 now and i'm too lazy to think now.) But i'll post my way to deal with this problem.

First of all, change situation to this:

Code: [Select]
###########
@#......i.#
.+...h...h#
.#..i.....#
###########

That does indeed work, but you can also replace that with:

Code: [Select]
###########
@#........#
.+.....i..#
.#h.i....h#
###########

In which case your point is moot. Sure, it does reduce the chance of fighting everything at once but there still is a chance.
Also, let's say you did encounter a situation like the one in your quote. Once you'd killed the imp, you'd have to either
A. Close the door, but that's not too smart unless you're on low HP
B. Move down, take over 10 HP worth of damage.

And my original arguement comes up again.

What will happen, you will open door, imp will see you, probably fire at you, in worst case he will destroy the wall. But it's 5-10 damage(2 hits happens VERY rare, so it's only 5 damage in most cases), not 16-21.

Even better decision(but not for AoB):

Code: [Select]
##################
@.......#......i.#
.......0+...h...h#
........#..i.....#
##################

What will happen, you will blow door, damage Former Sergeant and Imp pretty much, and you will have right to shoot first when they will enter your LoS to look, who is so smart to shoot barrels.)

Again, that works but it requires a barrel and a gun. You can't push barrels through open doors (Last time I checked) so unless you actually had one in the room with you (And the room would have to be big enough for you to get out of the blast radius) this wouldn't work. It's basically countering a coincidence (Imps and sergeants behind a door) with another one (Barrel in your room, room is big enough for you to hide from the blast).
« Last Edit: December 22, 2007, 18:55 by Thomas »
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Reaction time
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2007, 18:55 »

I will now speak on behalf of the monsters:

Why is it YOU who should go first? They should have a chance too!

xP
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Thomas

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Re: Reaction time
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2007, 18:57 »

I will now speak on behalf of the monsters:

Why is it YOU who should go first? They should have a chance too!

xP

Why is it that THEY should go first! I say we all go at the same time, like in a FPS. Oh wait...

Jokes aside, it's not like they walk in to my vision and then I instantly kill them without them having a say in it.
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Blade

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Re: Reaction time
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2007, 19:30 »

second one is a no-no as you can destroy valuable equipment by barreling places you havn't seen.

Oh, i destroyed pack of 20 plasma cells... Better would suffer damage of 16-21, but save my precious cells that are not even enough to kill AV. No matter that if i don't suffer this damage, i won't need this "valuable item".

There are no valuable items in this game. Point.

That does indeed work, but you can also replace that with:

Code: [Select]
###########
@#........#
.+.....i..#
.#h.i....h#
###########

In which case your point is moot. Sure, it does reduce the chance of fighting everything at once but there still is a chance.

Of course you always have a chance to die in this game. We can't create Perfect-Uber defence FROM EVERYTHING in this world. But at least we can reduce the chance that something bad will happen.

Also, let's say you did encounter a situation like the one in your quote. Once you'd killed the imp, you'd have to either
A. Close the door, but that's not too smart unless you're on low HP
B. Move down, take over 10 HP worth of damage.

And my original arguement comes up again.

A is stupid. Just stupid.
B is even more stupid than A.

Your next moves would be:
Code: [Select]
############
@.#......i.#
../...h...h#
..#..%.....#
############
Code: [Select]
#############
@..#......i.#
.../...h...h#
...#..%.....#
#############
Code: [Select]
##############
....#......i.#
@.../...h...h#
....#..%.....#
##############
And guess, you are now the king, you have door, through which you can fire to find enemies that are behind it. In our case you can kill 2 Sergeants without getting hit. Listen to the sounds of the monsters, that's why i changed soundbindings for every Former monster to different sound.

Again, that works but it requires a barrel and a gun. You can't push barrels through open doors (Last time I checked) so unless you actually had one in the room with you (And the room would have to be big enough for you to get out of the blast radius) this wouldn't work. It's basically countering a coincidence (Imps and sergeants behind a door) with another one (Barrel in your room, room is big enough for you to hide from the blast).

Barrels are quite common. You don't need to push it through open door(and it's impossible because it's just impossible, and because it's stupid to open door with barrel near you), you just need to blow hole in this wall to get rid of this potentially dangerous place, and in addition to hit anything that was fool enough to hide behind it.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2007, 19:33 by Blade »
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Thomas

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Re: Reaction time
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2007, 19:38 »

Lawng lawng poast

Oh yeah? Well what about:

Code: [Select]
###########
h#hhhhhhhh#
h+hhhhhhh>#
@#hhhhhhhh#
###########
[/joke]

Meh, I guess your way of dealing with a sergeant-infested room almost always works then. In which case, I just scored some tips from the best doomRL player here! MWAHAHA!
* Thomas runs off, leaving everyone questioning what just happened.
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Malek Deneith

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Re: Reaction time
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2007, 19:42 »

Quote
Oh, i destroyed pack of 20 plasma cells... Better would suffer damage of 16-21, but save my precious cells that are not even enough to kill AV. No matter that if i don't suffer this damage, i won't need this "valuable item".

There are no valuable items in this game. Point.
What if it was Red Armor while your armors are all amost destroyed? Supercharge that would net you three to four times more health than you'd loose? Heck even those 20 cells can be ones that you'll lack for that last shot from BFG in future that could save you. Never underestimate any item - it might be the one you'll need few steps later.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Reaction time
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2007, 19:49 »

There are two really valuable items in the game -- the AA and LS. I think I should add more :). Maybe unique weapons would be cool?
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Blade

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Re: Reaction time
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2007, 20:01 »

What if it was Red Armor while your armors are all amost destroyed? Supercharge that would net you three to four times more health than you'd loose? Heck even those 20 cells can be ones that you'll lack for that last shot from BFG in future that could save you. Never underestimate any item - it might be the one you'll need few steps later.

If i've had enough rockets to raze all levels to the ground, i would do that without afraid that i will destroy something "valuable". Only because i won't need that "valuable". I prefer not to reduce my armors to "almost destroyed" level by avoiding potentially dangerous places(such as this door), where things could turn very unpleasant, so unpleasant that i won't ever be in need of something else than good wooden coffin. ESPECIALLY when i have low armor, or low health, i WON'T open this door that way and WILL BLOW it because this door is dangerous, and could be the last door for me. I'm not blowing entire room, i'm blowing only door, so if it's something "valuable" inside, it would be left in good condition. Even if there was a barrel behind that wall, and after it it's another barrel, so the entire room was blown up, i won't cry, i will be happy because i killed some monsters without problems and potential danger. Armor and health... i can find them elsewhere, in more safe place.
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Derek

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Re: Reaction time
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2007, 20:51 »

What Blade said plus...

Games where there is always a "right" solution are not as fun as games where you have to make difficult decisions to sacrifice good things for better ones. :)

Randomly generated unique weapons would be pretty sweet!  +5 double shotgun named "Boomstick" FTW!
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Aerton

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Re: Reaction time
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2007, 03:07 »

Can't you blast the door with a shotgun from a distance? No precioussss would be destroyed this way.

good wooden coffin.
I guess, UAC uses zinc.
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Blade

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Re: Reaction time
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2007, 05:59 »

Can't you blast the door with a shotgun from a distance? No precioussss would be destroyed this way.

I surely can if i'm using shotguns. I can do it even with CG with damage mod. But i prefer barrels, they make very cool explosion sound.)

good wooden coffin.
I guess, UAC uses zinc.

I guess UAC isn't using coffins anymore.) Dead bodies are very nice on Phobos, they themselves stand up from places where they died not to hamper the others by just lying on the floor.
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