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[007bistromath]

There is a problem with Intuition. It'd behind Eagle Eye. This ability is of immense use to almost any build. I've been told a million times it's not, but my experience (I do have some) tells me that having it significantly lengthens my average game, and I mean before level three. (Level three actually shortens it a bit, because it tempts me into blowing up my stuff on The Wall and then I get pissed off and quit. :p) Knowing whether a lever will heal me or kill me, and better yet, knowing where the globes and shards are is already a very nice thing to have on a chaingun or AoMr run. On a shotgun or berserker run, it could completely save the game for me... except that I can't ever actually get it on either of those, because it's behind Eagle Eye, which means that getting it requires me to completely and totally waste two levels.

Now, I've suggested something similar before, and was resisted because having monster sense at level three would be overpowered. And it would! I am forced to agree with that. I think there's a pretty simple fix, though.

Get rid of it.

Think about it. Instead of the third level of Intuition, just take Cateye. Remember Cateye? That was a fun trait, right? But you haven't taken it in forever because you have Int3. Even worse, Int3 is not really all that much more useful. The basic reason it's overpowered is that it's like having Cat2 at the time you should have, at most, Cat1. Beyond that distance, is the information you get from Int3 really that important? It shows you where the monsters are in parts of the map where you cannot possibly attack them and do not yet need to worry about evading them. By the time you get to where they are, they will have moved, unless they're sitting on a lever. You seriously just might as well have taken Cateye and then you'd be able to actually hit the things instead of the barrel next to the red armor they're standing in front of.

I say we cap Intuition at 2 and make it a base trait. If there is some reason you have to have a certain number of things with prereqs, I say put TaN behind Ironman. They both do pretty much the same thing anyway, and I think Ironman is the more important one.

[Malek Deneith]

@Intuition lvl 3 - I must disagree on it beeing useless... by knowing where the enemy is allows things like barell-ing them thrugh a wall, avoiding them while low on health and searching for meds/globes, or simply shotgunning them outside of LOS. And apart of that it also is the most flavorfull level of Intuition IMO ;)

@TaN as subtrait of Intuition - spit out those words... just... spit... them... out. I won't start yet another flamewar discussion about TaN vs IM usability, but I'll say just this: this is a bad idea - not only not everyone must agree with IM beeing more important (I for one don't - TaN saved my a$$ plenty of times), but also neither TaN's or IM's effects merit them beeing an "advanced" trait (i.e. one requireing prequisites).

[007bistromath]

I didn't say Intuition level 3 was useless. If it were, it wouldn't basically replace Cateye most of the time. What I am saying is that it is not so much better than Cateye that we'll all die horribly for not having it. I also agree that in many ways, Int3 is kind of fun. The other two levels are important enough though that if they're behind anything, they should not be behind a specialist trait that walls it off from the builds that could benefit the most from it.

That makes me think, though... if we really want to keep Int3, and therefore need it behind something, why not put it behind something that helps everybody? Make Ironman the prerequisite of Intuition. In a way, it makes more sense anyway; they're both traits that basically mean "this guy is a survivor."

re: IM v TaN.

If we've had that discussion so many times, then why for god's sake doesn't Kornel just release the numbers so we can put it to rest? o_O

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Malek knows most of the numbers, you should trust your Inquisitor ^^

[DaEezT]

re: IM v TaN.

If we've had that discussion so many times, then why for god's sake doesn't Kornel just release the numbers so we can put it to rest? o_O

Where Ironman & Tough as Nails changed or was the description altered or what did I miss? TaN used to give +1 armor and Ironman +10 hp. That's it. Those are "the numbers" behind the two traits.
They do different things and should not be chained.

[007bistromath]

When I say "the numbers" I mean the expanded view of which of those two things benefits your character more in the general case and in specific situations. That requires a bit more info than I have. Total health, the amount of damage any given thingy does, the effectiveness of armor, all that stuff.

Anyway, if you guys say they should be out in front, that's cool. I didn't want either of them to get moved back, I was just offering it as an alternative if unlocking Intuition would be against some kind of thing about how many base traits there are. If there is no such thing, I'm all for just making Intuition a base trait and not putting anything behind anything else. I'm also all for putting it behind Iro, or TaN, or SoB, or whatever, just anything except Eagle Eye. Eagle Eye is a terrible thing for something as generally useful as Intuition to be stuck behind. Specialist traits are the ones that should be in the back, it's backwards.

[DaEezT]

When I say "the numbers" I mean the expanded view of which of those two things benefits your character more in the general case and in specific situations. That requires a bit more info than I have. Total health, the amount of damage any given thingy does, the effectiveness of armor, all that stuff.

You start out with 50hp so the first level of IM effectively gives you +20% hp, the second 17% and the third 14%. Large meds, berserk packs, inv globes and supercharge all fill you up to a specific % of your hp so you benefit from IM a lot when using those. IM gets more useful as you armor level increases.

TaN gives you +1 armor. Each point of armor reduces received damage by one per hit. So a player with TaN(1) and a green armor gets -2 damage on every hit. The catch is that you'll always take at least 1 point of damage, which make TaN less useful as your regular armor gets stronger. A plasma burst from a commando/arach still does at least 1 point of damage per hit  even with red armor and TaN(3).

The last time we had reliable numbers about monster damage was in 0.9.8.5 and I don't know how much changed since then.

[007bistromath]

Useful information! Particularly the bit about the damage floor. I can see why you need both of them, now.

[Zeb]

I would agree with unchaining intuition. I love the lever effects, but can't use them because I don't want to invest all the levels in unlocking it then leveling it up.

There's no reason to have two skills requiring Eagle Eye anyway, and from a flavor standpoint EE as a prereq for Int doesn't make much sense.

[RickVoid]

Here's a thought. At int3, take away the monster sense. That's the main reason we have it chained up. I don't even bother with levers anymore, because you need 4-5 levels to make int useful and prevent me from drowning myself in acid. (2 for cat-eye, 2-3 for int) Those are levels I could be spending on something else in an AoB or Mr game (like TaN or IM or HR)

Hell, you could even change it to a two level trait by getting rid of the first level of it.

Just my 2 copper pieces.

[Silhar]

I'm going to strongly disagree with this one. Intuition, IMHO, is okay as it is. Putting two points into Eagle Eye isn't a waste ! You are firing a rapid weapon, like chainee, plasma gun or pistols in AoMr - how many bullets do miss ? Yes, too many. When using "monster sense", Eagle Eye is also useful - because to-hit chance for enemies outside LOS is halved, and each point is important here. I think chained intuition doesn't come into way that much.

And no one says you must load Int with all three points... if you need "lever sense", you need only one point loaded into it.

Alternatively, you might let player pick it after getting EE(1) or dropping 1st level of it. Or, even let player pick the first level as a basic trait, the second after picking EE(1), and the third - after EE(2). This would make only one trait point "go waste". But it can destroy something called "game ballance", making things too easy... No, I don't know too much about development or something, so don't kick me (too hard) if I'm wrong.

[007bistromath]

I'm going to strongly disagree with this one. Intuition, IMHO, is okay as it is. Putting two points into Eagle Eye isn't a waste ! You are firing a rapid weapon, like chainee, plasma gun or pistols in AoMr - how many bullets do miss ? Yes, too many.

You aren't paying attention, dude. Of course it's not a waste if you're using any of those things. The problem is that Intuition, particularly the first two levels, would be much more useful in a shotgun or melee game, and you can't have them unless you want to take two no-trait levels. It's stupid.

[Silhar]

Alternatively, you might let player pick it after getting EE(1) or dropping 1st level of it. This would make only one trait point "go waste".

You aren't paying attention, dude.

No. You aren't. Look two posts up and check the last part.
Ah, BTW, just posted another idea there.

[007bistromath]

I read your entire post. Nothing in it at the time addressed the problem. The new idea seems decent enough, though.

[TFoN]

Intuition(3)'s different from Cateye in several ways:
- Int(3) reveals targets behind walls, something CE can't do at any range.
- Int(3) never directly reveals the type of monster detected.
- CE(1-2) eliminates the 50% miss-rate at 1-2 additional squares respectively.
- Int(3) reveals monsters at any range, but never directly reveals other details.

Judging by this, I'd say they're quite a bit different.


Regarding TaN vs IM (again :) ):
I prefer TaN in almost every way. True, there's the 1-point floor, but TaN(3) makes Barons, AVs and other heavy hitters count as lesser foes when calculating for red armour. Also, even without armour you're a walking fortress, keeping Arachs near-powerless even after you lose your armour to bigger, badder demons.


When it comes to making Intuition a basic trait, well, seems to me that'll make it WAY overpowered, while Int(3) right now's just a powerful, but balanced, advanced trait, with little need to nerf now that the 50% miss has been implemented.
I've suggested before separating the lever effect from monster and power-up effect, making lever-sense a 2 rank basic trait, while making Intuition(2-3) a 2 rank trait unlocked as it is now. I still think that'll clear up many of these problems.