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Author Topic: Gaming vs Reality (a.k.a. Flame War brewing ;P)  (Read 9931 times)

maso

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Gaming vs Reality (a.k.a. Flame War brewing ;P)
« on: December 15, 2007, 10:29 »

Surely a double barrel shotgun would fire twice or else it would be a triple barrel shotgun...

What about reload times?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2007, 11:44 by Malek Deneith »
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Malek Deneith

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Gaming vs Reality (a.k.a. Flame War brewing ;P)
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2007, 11:05 »

Surely a double barrel shotgun would fire twice or else it would be a triple barrel shotgun...

Before current beta Double Shotgun dealt (6d3)x2 but that was generally considered not enough, so Kornel increased it to (6d3)x3. Don't think about it as of three actual shots as for chaingun or plasma rifle - it's only to represent the fact that game mechanics rolls and applies the damage three spearate times, rather than roll it once and triple before applying. (if you want to rationalize the x3 damage, treat it an representation of pellet cloud so dense that it causes more damage than pellets from two spearate normal shotgun shots could)

What about reload times?

There is some data on wiki, but it's more or less our guesess - I dared not ask Kornel more questions at this time, not to invoke his wrath ;) Perhaps another time...
« Last Edit: December 15, 2007, 11:45 by Malek Deneith »
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Daqin

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Gaming vs Reality (a.k.a. Flame War brewing ;P)
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2008, 01:57 »

Surely a double barrel shotgun would fire twice or else it would be a triple barrel shotgun...
(if you want to rationalize the x3 damage, treat it an representation of pellet cloud so dense that it causes more damage than pellets from two spearate normal shotgun shots could)

If pellet cloud is so dense then why spread is so big...?
That's kind of absurd in the way of thinking.
Actually, if you want it with natural physics then with spread so wide every target would be hit by one or few pellets, which would make them feel as if they just got bite from a huge mosquito..
The game seems to have it's own physics and I wouldn't mix it with the natural one. Such mess up is symptom that person cannot distinguish between what's pure concept/assumption  in their mind and what is based on natural world, not standing firmly on the ground should take a brake from computers. Either be aware it is fiction or stick to simulation and rationalizing. Mixing this two is like being in fiction and believing it is real. Kinda illusion.
The game seems to be based on more assumptions where there is lack of experience or some reasoning. For example: pistols. Any person with actual experience with pistols would know that they are extremely hard to aim. With only one hand grip and very short barrel even the slightest movement changes angle of line of fire a lot. Rifles on the other hand are bigger size, and one hand prevents the other from these uncontrolled movements making rifle much more stabilized, and long barrel lets you aim much more precisely. To hit a bottle from 50m with rifle is a piece of cake, to hit it with pistol it is a miracle.
In game, we can say the action is so fast paced that it is easier to aim fast with pistols. I would represent it by pistols having same accuracy as rifles, not higher though.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Gaming vs Reality (a.k.a. Flame War brewing ;P)
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2008, 04:20 »

DoomRL weapon stats are NOT based on realism. They are based on balance and playablity.
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Daqin

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Gaming vs Reality (a.k.a. Flame War brewing ;P)
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2008, 04:53 »

DoomRL weapon stats are NOT based on realism. They are based on balance and playablity.

That's kinda what I said too. However just by using names 'shotgun' or 'chainsaw' you base it on 'realism' and people expect these things to work that way. Same for example with other things that are common sense, like: if you put on heavy armor you would move slower. If it makes you move faster it wouldn't make sense, but you could say it is for playability. Generally if things are closer then it easier to hit them, but it could be different also. However what is common knowledge for someone, for someone else can be unknown, like for example with pistols. For me it is quite obvious that if you aim with pistol it is hard to hit. If with rifles then it is easier. So it is as if you adopt some nonsense for game balance purpose, but it looks more like it is just not known to you. You can play game on any rules, however, if game is generally based on our reality then making it go sideways into the abstract creates confusion. Usually people try to imitate how-things-work in their games with more or less attempt. Making consciously things go the other way is rather unexpected.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Gaming vs Reality (a.k.a. Flame War brewing ;P)
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2008, 05:27 »

TBH, on a 25 meter range I have a lot better score with a 9mm beretta than a AK-22, but that probably can be because I'm a poor shot with rifles -_-.
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Gaming vs Reality (a.k.a. Flame War brewing ;P)
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2008, 05:33 »

Usually people try to imitate how-things-work in their games with more or less attempt.
Or they are merely creating a game that people will enjoy.  When I play a game I realize I'm entering a reality that could perhaps have nothing at all to do with my own, whether it was intended to be based on mine or not.  If pistols can somehow hit a target every time without the soldier trying to hard, then thats a fact of that universe, not my own.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Gaming vs Reality (a.k.a. Flame War brewing ;P)
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2008, 05:40 »

Hey, demons don't walk across military bases, at least as far as I know :P.
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Daqin

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Gaming vs Reality (a.k.a. Flame War brewing ;P)
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2008, 06:07 »

TBH, on a 25 meter range I have a lot better score with a 9mm beretta than a AK-22, but that probably can be because I'm a poor shot with rifles -_-.
If there is no other explanation.. :J

Or they are merely creating a game that people will enjoy.  When I play a game I realize I'm entering a reality that could perhaps have nothing at all to do with my own, whether it was intended to be based on mine or not.  If pistols can somehow hit a target every time without the soldier trying to hard, then thats a fact of that universe, not my own.

Yeah, joy is the purpose of the game, isn't it? But accepting things go other way in game is called tolerance and adaptation. Kinda like 'well, that's weird but if it is so then ok'. Also, people may find things not making sense first, but then let it pass, with result that they may carry that attitude along after gaming. This is called ignorance.
Generally, I enjoy game as it is but if I can improve game and straighten these little things then I take chance and speak up.

Quote
Hey, demons don't walk across military bases, at least as far as I know :P.
It is not about events or belief, it is about law of nature, physics, sense of our reality..or whatever name, that thing that keeps you sane.
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Potman

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Re: Gaming vs Reality (a.k.a. Flame War brewing ;P)
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2008, 06:56 »

If you're trying to create compeletely realistic weapons, then you have to make everything else realistic as well. It won't work otherwise. It'd be just silly, being utterly realistic in one thing and unrealistic in other.

You'ren't seeing forest out of trees: You're just talking about some silly insignificant shotgun physics and forgetting all about the fact that, in real life, you will be dead or at least crippled anyway when shot once with any kind of a gun. What happens if you made it so, that you die from one or two shots, and if you don't be killed outright, you'll receive a serious decrease in hit chance, speed, dodge chance, among other things? People will complain. They won't like it.

No realism there means no realism anywhere. Either all must be realistic, or the whole thing must be ignored in favour of game mechanics and fun. Thus, no realism.
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Mr_Dead

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Re: Gaming vs Reality (a.k.a. Flame War brewing ;P)
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2008, 06:57 »

Very funny Malek.  Alright I can see your point Daq, but ask yourself this, would making the game more realistic really make it more fun?  Or take away what makes it Doom RL?  Does it really matter whether something you play for entertainment is exactly like our reality or not?  Some would say yes, others, like myself would say no.  Ignorance is bliss. :O
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Malek Deneith

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Re: Gaming vs Reality (a.k.a. Flame War brewing ;P)
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2008, 06:57 »

First of all - a split as this discussion no longer belongs to Weapon Analysis thread

Second - yeah, maby my "explanation" wasn't so smart... I admit that I have little knowledge of actual guns ;P

Third - sorry Daquin but I can't agree with you. Most games, and that includes DoomRL are based on balance first and foremost. Double Shotgun was underused, so it got strenghtened up - gama balance. Armor wieghts aree also a sign of game balance - they were made to make people decide between mobility but lesser protection and less mobility but better protection - I don't think that Kornel ever considered the change of "realism". Pistols with higher accuracy? Again game balance, pistols aren't strong but were made more accurate to make them worthwhile. And I don't think game should be "more realistic" - game is meant to be fun and balancing, if we start making it realistic we'll end up with marine beeing unable to go below first level or so because accumulated fhuman fire would quickly result in fatal wounds requreing medicial attantion beyond what so called "med-kits" can provide, while formers themeselves would have to be nigh impossible to kill (zombies - no need to breathe, no need for blood = 90% of shots would do nothing). Yes I'm probably pushing the example too far but from my experience forcibly trying to put realism in games that aren't mant to be ralistic brings only disaster.
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Daqin

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Re: Gaming vs Reality (a.k.a. Flame War brewing ;P)
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2008, 08:43 »

If you're trying to create compeletely realistic weapons, then you have to make everything else realistic as well. It won't work otherwise. It'd be just silly, being utterly realistic in one thing and unrealistic in other.
...No realism there means no realism anywhere. Either all must be realistic, or the whole thing must be ignored in favour of game mechanics and fun. Thus, no realism.

In any point of view I believe it is good to stay out of extremes. I don't see the game as completely unrealistic or do not want to make completely simulation-like one. What I mean is that people do reflect some reality to the point they are concerned or wish to, or skip some aspects, however they generally do not go the other way, purposely deform the way-things-are. To try to simulate everything completely it is not possible even in theory because there are still many unknown phenomena to our science. As I said to stay with common feel and implement things that actually matter in certain circumstances, like games.

Quote
You're just talking about some silly insignificant shotgun physics and forgetting all about the fact that, in real life, you will be dead or at least crippled anyway when shot once with any kind of a gun. What happens if you made it so, that you die from one or two shots, and if you don't be killed outright, you'll receive a serious decrease in hit chance, speed, dodge chance, among other things? People will complain. They won't like it.

I believe this thing is just what game requires since the beginning, because without it could be no game. IMO hit points represent things that cannot be
included with the game, like your combat sense, feelings, ability to act and think clearly under stress and while wounded, natural predisposition, etc., all that would make you last longer before getting killed. So hit points, from certain point of view, is like a time you have to react with game abilities to simulate/compensate lack of these natural qualities that cannot be included with the game.

..but ask yourself this, would making the game more realistic really make it more fun?  Or take away what makes it Doom RL?  Does it really matter whether something you play for entertainment is exactly like our reality or not?  Some would say yes, others, like myself would say no.  Ignorance is bliss. :O

I believe what is joyful about games is that they let you find yourself in some situations which are hard to happen in our normal lives. It means you find yourself, as if in this world or based on the laws you know and grown up with, in completely different situation that lets you act and do things normally not available. To do this you have to have feeling that things in the game correspond to our own, to some extend. If someone made everything non-sens you would not be interested because you would not understand anything.

And I don't think game should be "more realistic" - game is meant to be fun and balancing, if we start making it realistic we'll end up with marine beeing unable to go below first level or so because accumulated fhuman fire would quickly result in fatal wounds requreing medicial attantion beyond what so called "med-kits" can provide, while formers themeselves would have to be nigh impossible to kill (zombies - no need to breathe, no need for blood = 90% of shots would do nothing). Yes I'm probably pushing the example too far but from my experience forcibly trying to put realism in games that aren't mant to be ralistic brings only disaster.

Like in above post I believe that 'realism' is what lets you taste things as if you were in some kind of situation that is normally hard to come by.. To do that you don't need to simulate everything completely. Just what is essential, and lack of possibility of simulation can be replaced by some other means (like hit points). However making things work opposite takes that feel of experiencing things away.

If we make game in which marine dies on 1st or 2nd level, there would be no point of making this game. What makes sense to make, should be made, if something requires to be left alone then should be left alone. What I mean: we know that we can heal ourselves with medical aid. However it is different process. Because in-game we have health that works different way, medi-packs also work different way. However the essence of these two is the same. So with this we feel ok.
However if some things work against the laws we know, we start to question, because it doesn't work as it should.. And it is something we put aside and continue playing, but if it was up to us we would change it. Not everything should be altered for balance-sake. The trick is to keep it up with other things, not to keep up other things with the balance.
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Mr_Dead

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Re: Gaming vs Reality
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2008, 09:20 »

I believe what is joyful about games is that they let you find yourself in some situations which are hard to happen in our normal lives. It means you find yourself, as if in this world or based on the laws you know and grown up with, in completely different situation that lets you act and do things normally not available. To do this you have to have feeling that things in the game correspond to our own, to some extend. If someone made everything non-sens you would not be interested because you would not understand anything.
We all just like or dislike different things about what's in a game, fair enough.
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Daqin

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Re: Gaming vs Reality
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2008, 09:28 »

I believe what is joyful about games is that they let you find yourself in some situations which are hard to happen in our normal lives. It means you find yourself, as if in this world or based on the laws you know and grown up with, in completely different situation that lets you act and do things normally not available. To do this you have to have feeling that things in the game correspond to our own, to some extend. If someone made everything non-sens you would not be interested because you would not understand anything.
We all just like or dislike different things about what's in a game, fair enough.

What I described is rather something that is going on without player being aware of. It is not your conscious choice as reason for why you play, but rather explanation of process that makes you play games.
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