General > Discussion

Can you play as a bad guy?

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Potman:
I can't. There're two reasons for this, and neither of them are "It's just wrong":

1) The black/white-feeling how it's done. Like, bad guys are always child-eating, puppy-smashing, granny-kicking assholes who spit on everyone's face and always get negative reaction from everywhere. I just can't play with that kind of character, not without being sick of my own evilness at least. Hell, I can't even understand why they'd ever be interested in avenging their father or stuff like that, which is what you usually do in RPGs.

Now, if there ever was a possibility to play with a greedy, cheating, manipulating bastard who swindles people from their money without them even noticing, does good deeds just for the reward (while our generic bad guy wouldn't do it at all), and generally seems a nice enough guy to other people, like a nice red apple that's just rotten from the inside - that'd be a different story altogether. I'd love to play with someone like that. Too bad it's just not possible.

2) Good guys always get, not only the nice feeling of doing something that matters (that should be enough for any good guy), but also much much bigger rewards and loads more experience than the evil ones. Maybe it's just being such a generic asshole they always are, but true baddies should get more money than shiny knights by default. It's just how it should go.

Like, let's say you're supposed to deliver some money from one guy to another. The good guy does how he was asked, sure thing. The Generic Bad Guy takes the money for himself, and goes to the NPC to brag about "Ha ha, I'm gonna keep the money myself, and there's nothing you can do about it! Ha ha!", and something negative, such as bad rep and everyone hating you, follows. Meanwhile, all he really gets is just some meaningless little sum of that you can't buy anything useful with, and you'll get so much more money by selling the stuff from any random encounter (known as "Fallout 2 Syndrome").

Meanwhile, the good guy who did as was asked, will get to keep the whole sum for himself for being such a nice guy, and the NPC will give him some Really Powerful Magic Artifact That's Been In Our Family For Generations (tm), and everyone in the game loves the player a bit more.

A baddie I'd like to play would grab some of the money for himself, and then deliver the rest as asked. With luck, the NPC won't notice that some gold is missing.

So if you want the most experience and the best stuff, you'll play with the Innocent Momma's Boy. I want my games for entertainment and escapism, not ethics education, thank you very much.

tisiphone:
Nice topic! I was thinking about the same kind of stuff lately too –   

--- Quote from: Potman ---1) The black/white-feeling how it's done. Like, bad guys are always child-eating, puppy-smashing, granny-kicking assholes who spit on everyone's face and always get negative reaction from everywhere. I just can't play with that kind of character, not without being sick of my own evilness at least.
--- End quote ---
I think this is a matter of preference. Being a complete asshole isn’t for everyone I guess :p There are a lot of games where I would prefer to be an all round bustard then being a save-the-world-kind-of-guy. Examples being:
Warhammer, (I’m so going to be burnt for this but) being spawn of Chaos kicks ass! In fact, that’s why I like Slaanesh, being a self-serving twisted megalomaniac is just something that appeals to me;
Master of Orion (and other space empire games), I don’t really get nearly as much of a kick out of them unless I imagine being a tyrannical emperor sending millions to their deaths and annihilating planets full of innocent citizens;
Err, there where more, but I forgot the rest...


--- Quote from: Potman ---Hell, I can't even understand why they'd ever be interested in avenging their father or stuff like that, which is what you usually do in RPGs.
--- End quote ---
Very true. Personally I think that’s a flaw in the RPG’s story (i.e. failing to take in to account that you might be an ungrateful brat and so on). I would really like there to be a game that would take in to account other forms of motivation (well at least those that focus on giving the player the (illusion of) choice anyway). 


--- Quote from: Potman ---Now, if there ever was a possibility to play with a greedy, cheating, manipulating bastard who swindles people from their money without them even noticing, does good deeds just for the reward (while our generic bad guy wouldn't do it at all), and generally seems a nice enough guy to other people, like a nice red apple that's just rotten from the inside - that'd be a different story altogether. I'd love to play with someone like that. Too bad it's just not possible.
--- End quote ---
I think, in a way, this is possible in pretty much any game. If you think about it, there is more or less no way to actually *know* what the character is feeling. After all you are only judging him/her by his/her actions as an invisible observer – for all you know he/she could be fantasising about killing the entire village... And if you imagine that you are the character – then you know what you’re thinking, and it *is* up to you what you really think about everyone ;)


--- Quote from: Potman ---2) Good guys always get, not only the nice feeling of doing something that matters (that should be enough for any good guy), but also much much bigger rewards and loads more experience than the evil ones. Maybe it's just being such a generic asshole they always are, but true baddies should get more money than shiny knights by default. It's just how it should go.

Like, let's say you're supposed to deliver some money from one guy to another. The good guy does how he was asked, sure thing. The Generic Bad Guy takes the money for himself, and goes to the NPC to brag about "Ha ha, I'm gonna keep the money myself, and there's nothing you can do about it! Ha ha!", and something negative, such as bad rep and everyone hating you, follows. Meanwhile, all he really gets is just some meaningless little sum of that you can't buy anything useful with, and you'll get so much more money by selling the stuff from any random encounter (known as "Fallout 2 Syndrome").

Meanwhile, the good guy who did as was asked, will get to keep the whole sum for himself for being such a nice guy, and the NPC will give him some Really Powerful Magic Artifact That's Been In Our Family For Generations (tm), and everyone in the game loves the player a bit more.

So if you want the most experience and the best stuff, you'll play with the Innocent Momma's Boy.
--- End quote ---
So true. I really want to play my way through Baldur's Gate II with the moral code similar to Korgan Bloodaxe and not miss out on all the cool artefacts/experience that Lawful Good characters get :( 


--- Quote from: Potman ---A baddie I'd like to play would grab some of the money for himself, and then deliver the rest as asked. With luck, the NPC won't notice that some gold is missing.
--- End quote ---
Nah, your evil lacks scope. Me, I want to be a child-eating, puppy-smashing, granny-kicking assholes :p Just don’t want to be dealt out of all the long term rewards that the good guys get...


--- Quote from: Potman ---I want my games for entertainment and escapism, not ethics education, thank you very much.
--- End quote ---
 
:o
Can I put this in my signature?
:p

Potman:

--- Quote from: tisiphone on February 01, 2008, 10:40 ---:o
Can I put this in my signature?
:p

--- End quote ---

Feel free, though I don't think it's that sig-worthy.

DaEezT:
Well, you just went through a lot of text to tell us what we already know: Computer (PC & Console) RPGs are limited by the options the creators implemented. If you don't like it: don't play it.*

The solution for it is rather straight forward as well: Pen & Paper


*I pretty much exclusively play the bad guy and always as rotten to the core as the gameplay permits.

tisiphone:

--- Quote from: Potman ---Feel free, though I don't think it's that sig-worthy.
--- End quote ---
Well I like it all the same (maybe just the mood I'm in). Thanks :)


--- Quote from: DaEezT ---Well, you just went through a lot of text to tell us what we already know: Computer (PC & Console) RPGs are limited by the options the creators implemented. If you don't like it: don't play it.*
--- End quote ---
I’m not sure who you are talking about but I took Portman’s post to mean:
1) He doesn’t like being a complete bustard/typical bad-guy
2) Current games favour people playing as the good-guys

My response was:
1) I love being as evil as possible
2) I agree completely

:S

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