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[Titt]

Remember DeHackEd, the program used to edit DOOM2.EXE, when even making a full IWAD wasn't enough? It let you change a lot of Doom's basic behavior; it was very easy, and quickly got boring, to give the Super Shotgun the same rate of fire as the Chaingun, and other overpowered things like that. Much more fun was making rockets have "partial invisibility" (like Specters) and have zero speed, so they acted as mines. I remember making a DeHackEd patch and a WAD once which were intended to be used together so you could play "BFG tennis" in Deathmatch--with the EXE patch, the BFG ball moved very slowly, and was "solid" and could be hit by weapons fire, which would push it around; the idea was that each player would get a BFG and a shotgun, and each would fire their BFG shot, and you would try to use your shotgun to get your BFG ball to hit a wall so you could use the weird area effect mechanics to kill the other player, while at the same time keeping the other guy's BFG ball from hitting anything and exploding. It wasn't actually very fun.

Anyway, DeHackEd was a pretty well-known part of playing Doom in those days (the mid-1990s), and it might be fun to see it show up somehow in DoomRL--maybe some vaults could contain an item called a "Computer Terminal" or something like this, which could act much like a lever (immovable, can be destroyed by explosions) but on using it you would have a few options--get a Computer Map for the level, or getting to take your choice of any the usual effects of a lever, etc.; but for players fitting the right requirements (a level of Whizkid? having found and kept an artifact "Disk of DeHackEd"?) you might get to choose to "Run DeHackEd" and edit some of the parameters of the game while you are IN the game. Obviously you shouldn't be able to give your Double Shotgun a firing time of 0.1 second, but it would be fun to be able to tweak other game parameters in a less abusive way:

• making all bullet weapons do an extra +1 damage--both your pistols and chainguns, and also those of the former humans and former captains (or similar for all shotguns or all plasma guns);
• making everything unable to fly--so cacodemons, lost souls, and pain elementals will be affected by acid and lava;
• tweaking the rates of appearance of the various monsters, like a less powerful version of Nethack's Scroll of Genocide--you can't make Archviles disappear from the game, but you can make them appear less often;
• tweaking some AI parameters, so some monsters are more likely to run from you, for instance;
• making a certain kind of monster never leave a corpse, so it can't be resurrected by Archviles;
• making a certain kind of monster drop a different kind of ammo when it dies--having Mancubuses drop plasma cells instead of rockets, for instance;
• dropping the armor level by 1 on all monsters of a certain kind that have at least 1 level of armor by default--Revenants, or Mancubuses, or Archviles, etc.;
• giving yourself a 10% (or whatever percent) boost to the experience gained from each kill;
• changing the "natural" weapons of certain enemies, like downgrading Barons of Hell to have shotguns instead of their fireball attacks;
• making yourself "big enough" to use the artifact weapons that the game says you are unable to use;
• there are probably a lot of other possibilities.

Some of these things would be pretty good in an Ao100 game, where (for instance) a couple tweaks to make Archviles less of a threat would really improve your long-term chance of surviving.

[Malek Deneith]

Sort of "ingame cheat" it looks like to me... Hell no I say! Hell no!

* Malek Deneith sends JC after Titt

[Conker]

Assuming that such a terminal would be rare, and possibly have a chance of failure, and the stats wouldn't be affected too much (+1 bullet damage is fine, +10 is not. Same for -5% chance of Archvile generation versus -50%), this sounds like a great idea. It should offer a random selection of all the possible effects (like, ten out of the hundred possible ones), but it should word them in an ambiguous way. Similar to D&D players having to word 'wishes' from a genie very very carefully...

[Titt]

Assuming that such a terminal would be rare, and possibly have a chance of failure, and the stats wouldn't be affected too much (+1 bullet damage is fine, +10 is not. Same for -5% chance of Archvile generation versus -50%), this sounds like a great idea. It should offer a random selection of all the possible effects (like, ten out of the hundred possible ones), but it should word them in an ambiguous way. Similar to D&D players having to word 'wishes' from a genie very very carefully...

This sounds right.


If there are "computer terminals" in the game and DeHackEd had to be "run" by finding it on a disk and using the disk at a computer terminal, another disk to put in the game would be one of the old WAD editors that was really successful, probably DCK, although I think today DoomBuilder is more popular; anyway, good options on running a WAD editor in-game would be to let you destroy all walls in the level, to remove a certain portion of the enemies in the level (say, 50% of the enemies in that level?), remove all the archviles in the level, scatter some ammo throughout the level, etc. Obviously the player should only be able to choose one of these options for each time they use the computer terminal, and the terminal could be set up to function like a lever, where it only works 1-3 times.

[Titt]

Sort of "ingame cheat" it looks like to me... Hell no I say! Hell no!

* Malek Deneith sends JC after Titt

Nah, what I'm thinking of wouldn't affect the balance of the game very much--it should be something that is only possible to make work in a small proportion of games, say, games where you find both a rare object, the disk, and a rare lever, the computer terminal, and you use them together; and even then you only get a certain number of uses before the computer terminal shuts down, like any other lever. It's an "ingame cheat" in flavor, because DeHackEd was used to change the basic mechanics of Doom; but what I'm suggesting wouldn't change the way DoomRL plays in a very important way.


Other good disks the player could find: "a disk containing Doom," and "a disk containing DoomRL." I have no idea what should happen if the player runs these disks at a computer terminal, though.

[Vestin]

Nah, what I'm thinking of wouldn't affect the balance of the game very much

Any powerful addition is a threat to the game balance...

--it should be something that is only possible to make work in a small proportion of games, say, games where you find both a rare object, the disk, and a rare lever, the computer terminal, and you use them together; and even then you only get a certain number of uses before the computer terminal shuts down, like any other lever.

There is a rule about adding "powerful but rare" and "powerful but difficult to achieve" items that says they can either end up as absolutely crucial or absolutely useless. With as small inverntory as we do have in the game... I'd venture a guess that noone would pick up the_very_rare_disk unless he was convinced that:
1* the terminal WAS going to spawn
2* the terminal was going to spawn soon enough to be USEFUL
3* the effect was worthy having one slot occupied for some time (the very same slot that can be used to carry a spare armor, a medikit or a portable nuke)
4* the effect was worthy putting two point in Whizkid
5* the terminal was certain to show AFTER we have two points in Whizkid
6* the terminal was certain to show AFTER we got the disk
As you can see - it makes implemention POINTLESS.

but what I'm suggesting wouldn't change the way DoomRL plays in a very important way

It would add things that wouldn't be useful.

Other good disks the player could find: "a disk containing Doom," and "a disk containing DoomRL." I have no idea what should happen if the player runs these disks at a computer terminal, though.

DOOM:RL is a game that strictly avoids having fortune cookies and other useless junk like that. Part of the reason is the intentional simplicity and inventory management, I guess. We screw that up - the game ceases to be fun and atractive.

[Horyon]

+1 for Vestin.

I just can't see the point of this feature as it :
- is really weird and quite useless,
- is unrelated to doom universe and "destroys the ambiance" (what would you say if, in half-life, you could find a terminal to run worldcraft and modify the level you're playing in ?).

[Sachiko]

Yeah, what's good of doing 5UP4 L337 H4X0RZ apart of blatantly *ruining the game*?

On the other hand, putting computer terminals that do certain effects could actually add some fun to the game. Nothing around the level of reducing the spawning of Arch-Viles or things like that, but for example, opening locked doors, revealing the stairs to extra levels, or perhaps activate a self-destruct system that blows the level like a nuke would do... THOSE would actually turn out useful, and not as broken as what you suggest.

[Titt]

Reducing the spawn rate of Archviles is not broken in itself. Reducing the spawn rate of Archviles by 100%, i.e., making them never spawn, this is very broken (unless making this happen is a real feat and a quest in itself); reducing the spawn rate of Archviles by 0%, i.e., not reducing their spawning rate at all, this is clearly broken in the other direction, it's useless. Somewhere in between (reducing their rate of appearance by 5%? 10%? Depends on how difficult it is to actually use the "DeHackEd" thing in the game) is a serviceable number.

I mean, what's the point of being able to mod weapons, since you can just give your chaingun +100 to damage and blatantly *ruin the game*? The answer is that of course you can't do that, because modding weapons was written into the game in a reasonable and balanced way. I wouldn't suggest anything if I didn't think it could also be made in a reasonable and a balanced way within the game.

Also calling it 5UP4 L337 H4X0RZ makes me wonder if you know what DeHackEd actually is--have you written Doom patch WADs before? It's used with some patch WADs that require more changes to the game than what can be done in a PWAD, so DeHackEd lets you make some changes to the Doom executable. It was a big part of playing and modding Doom at one point--maybe there are more roguelike players on this board than people who played a lot of Doom, I don't know, but DeHackEd is as much a part of Doom as anything that didn't come bundled with the game on purchase from Id could be.

[Horyon]

I like Doom, I've played it for years and I've played many user made levels, but I don't remember anything about DeHackEd except maybe the name. So, unless I'm an exception, I think that it is an unessential feature of the game.

Moreover, this was not available in the game itself, so I think that it breaks the ambiance.

About computer terminals, we already have levers that fil the same purpose.

[Papachabre]

Heck yah I remember DeHackeD.  I remember trying to make crazy weapons with it.  They were usually over-powered and no fun to use but I had a few that actually added strategy (barrel creator?) and some that were just silly (giblet creator =).  That program also made it possible for people to make complete Doom mods like Aliens and such.

That said I think the computer terminal bit is interesting and should take a considerable bit of effort to achieve, but it is possible.

[Chamber]

I do not like the DeHacked proposal, no matter how balanced it is.  If it did work, it would make DoomRL more like MatrixRL, where the world could be inexplicably changed from the inside.  (Having raised this issue, how cool would MatrixRL be, huh?  :p  )

Expanding levers (as 'terminals') to have more varied effects, such as unlocking doors, revealing level maps, or other more complicated effects might be interesting, especially if they incorporated the current levers/intuition system without breaking everything.  But that's hardly Doomish, is it? 

[Titt]

Expanding levers (as 'terminals') to have more varied effects, such as unlocking doors, revealing level maps, or other more complicated effects might be interesting, especially if they incorporated the current levers/intuition system without breaking everything.  But that's hardly Doomish, is it? 

SW1SKULL and SW2SKULL were the textures in DOOM2.WAD which are a switch which appears to be a skull with a computer in its eyes (it was the exit switch in DOOM2's map "Circle of Destruction," for example); SW1BLUE and SW2BLUE were the switch textures for skull switches built into COMPBLUE-style computers. COMPSTA1, COMPSTA2, and SILVER3 were the non-switch computer terminal textures and they appeared frequently in Doom episode 1.

A few switch linedefs:

• 41 (S1) and 43 (SR) lowered the ceiling to the floor, closing off an area
• 103 (S1) and 112 (SR) fast-opened a door, possibly remotely, somewhere else in the map; there are variations for opening and staying open, and opening and then closing
• 14 (S1) and 15 (S1) raised a floor by 32 and by 24 units, respectively, and then changed its texture to match its surroundings (for instance, taking on a lava texture, or a water texture)
• 122 (S1) and 123 (SR) were the fast-lift switches which worked on remote lifts, which could be anywhere in the map (I wonder what lifts would look like in DoomRL)
• 138 (SR) and 139 (SR) changed the lighting in the tagged sector to the brightest and the darkest possible settings, respectively; given that DoomRL already has "Angel of Darkness" this linedef isn't so far from something that could be easily implemented in DoomRL

What I'm saying is that levers with complicated effects, changing the level around you, is certainly Doomish, especially since in practice these levers (switch linedefs) were used with W1 and WR linedefs (ones you trigger by walking over) in clever ways to produce much more complicated effects in Doom maps.



About "the world could be inexplicably changed from the inside": the joke with DeHackEd here is that you are using the computers, which existed (as textures, sometimes as textures on switches) in Doom maps, to run a program to edit Doom itself--or, taken ever further, to "run" Doom or DoomRL inside of DoomRL.

[Horyon]

I find the idea of adding additional lever effects interesting, though I don't think it's necessary to add computer terminals.

Some players complain about the fact that levers have a do high chance of negative effect and a so low chance of positive effect that they don't activate them at all (unless they have Intuition). So the game could gain in interest if levers had a greater probability of helping the player.

Here are some ideas of new lever effects :
- Spawn item(s) (like spawn monsters).
- The exit is hidden at start and a lever makes it appear.
- Remove acid or lava from the level.
- Spawn a group of ennemies somewhere else in the level.
- Provide a free upgrade on a piece of equipment (not very "doomish" I admit).
- Spawn stairs leading to a special level (maybe a level that never spawn unless the right lever is activated).
- Open some or all doors in the level (kind of neutral effect).
- Teleport the player randomly in the level (phase device effect).
- Teleport the player right on the exit (homing phase device effect).
- Reveal the map of the level (computer map effect).
- Make some or all wall become undestructible (a bit weird).

[Blade]

About DooM switches. Let's look what switches we already have:

• Fill some part of the level or the whole level with water, acid, or lava. - Can be considered like this:
  

  14 (S1) and 15 (S1) raised a floor by 32 and by 24 units, respectively, and then changed its texture to match its surroundings (for instance, taking on a lava texture, or a water texture)
  
• Destroy all walls in the area or on the entire map. - Same to "walls lowering level" lever in DooM
• Blow up all barrels in the level. - Only in DooMRL
• Instantly kill some enemies. - Only in DooMRL. But can be considered as fast lowering of ceiling above the enemy head, and then rising back.
• Spawn enemies. - Can be considered as lever that opens small window from which enemies from closed room in unreachable part of the map could see or hear you and, and then to teleport near you.
• MediTech and Armor depots. - Only in DooMRL

So, now let's see what we don't have:

• We don't have level that's lowering the ceiling and closing off an area. It could be wall-creation level, but it existance will only be annoying in most times because it can trap player that don't have RL, and he won't have any chance to escape(it's even worse than death because you can't exit game correctly with saving your scores this way).
• Lever that opens doors. Can be useful on some special level in combination with undestructable door that can be opened only by this lever. Lever that just opens all doors on the level is useless imho(because now they can be shot down even with pistol).
• Switch that makes some part of the terrain to lower or raise(so-called "lift"). - Unimplementable now because DooMRL have one-level structure of maps. And changing it to milti-level maps is, i think, hard and unnecessary.

About DeHackEd - i don't think that i need it.

About Horyon propositions - i like some of them(lever that spawns items, that reveals exits, that removes acid and lava, and teleporter lever).