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[ultimate26]

i was experimenting with it because i was thinking it would open new possibilities to the shotgun path, my theory was:

get finesse > juggler > finesse for starters, because you would dual wield shotguns and you would swap emm with no cost and shoot emm one after another with faster shoot time and without reloading them... the two normal shotgun shots one after another is almost like having a double barreled shotgun, but once you shoot emm both you have to reload and then theres the catch... reloader gives you 20% faster reload instead of the 10% faster shooting... 40 percent is better than 20 i think... so in the end im not sure its any usefull afterall...

in the end it all failed miserably by not being able to get past the hells arena wich i believe its a "must do" floor... if u cant beat hells arena u cannot win in life.

does the 20 percent faster shooting do anything? i even went on a chaingun path adding speed mod to it, making it super fast shooting but theres nothing effective about it... unloading 200+ bullets just to kill one baron... yea right... 

so far my superior build is EE > EE > SOB > SOB > EE for super damage because in the end more hits more damage...

guns are too innacurate forcing you to take EE if you want to actually kill something

here are some ideas that i thought about...

hellrunner should give bonus to the "running" tactic, because well its hell"runner" so make it less faster to get tired or give an additional 10% bonus to run and dodge, if they had affinity it would make HR bit more selectable maby...

the Gears of war rifle that has a chaingun attached, wouldnt it be awesome? 4D5 or 5D5 and has chainsaw melee damage... would make melee more fun instead of getting juggler to change into chainsaw and all that.

not sure but maby have melee weapons equipped in a different "melee weapon slot" so when you run into something it automatically counts as hitting with the melee weapon from the slot. so you can shoot around and run at things and knife emm, or just make guns have nice melee damage?

a new "double strike" melee skill that lets your melee weapon hit more times in a turn or make it 50% cheaper to hit someone with melee.... kung fu master skill wich give bonuses to fist fighting, giving critical, bleeding and multi punch features...

things that really need to change are, imp fireball damage and shooting speed, same with caco... i shoot with chaingun and they shoot me twice with fireball almost killing me, even barons are not that strong...

also non leveled accuracy is super bad... sometimes i gotta unload 8 pistol shots just to kill a normal dude...

[007bistromath]

Finesse is mostly for the things it unlocks. Juggler is a nice perk for most builds, and probably essential for shotgun style, since you'll need a rocket launcher or BFG to go with that doublegun to deal with things you don't want to get any closer to. You don't take it first though: if you don't have Shottyman halfway through Hell's Arena, you're probably getting owned. Whizkid's also very useful, though I personally haven't ever been in a situation where it helped. Not for lack of trying or anything, RNG just hates me... ;_;

The best time to take Finesse for itself is in AoMr, after you've got DG. For most other things, the firing time just isn't going to matter, but you have to go fast with pistols so you can get them before they get you.

[ultimate26]

so we basically have a useless skill? with no purpose besides getting the other upgrades? why not just skip the finesse tech skill and just jump into juggler or other skills?

i seriously think that making it 20 or 25% shooting speed be better, imagine a shotgun shooting with no recoil, reloading it at high speed and shooting again?  sounds like a skilled gunsmith to me! but 10 percent barely makes any difference in efficiency...

hellrunner is also kind of low... id say raise the percentages by 5% and maby it could be more selectable because EE lvl 3 and SOB lvl 3 is the best build so far next to the ironman and tough as nails build.

HR could be a good tech tree for the melee type of characters, so maby it could add some new skills to the melee build.

[Titt]

Assuming no mods and no other relevant traits, taking a level of Triggerhappy boosts your volume of fire by 20% with a chaingun, 12.5% with a plasma gun. Taking a level of Finesse boosts your volume of fire (average number of rounds fired in any given length of time) by 11.11% for either chaingun or plasma gun, under the same conditions. Now Triggerhappy is one of the most desired traits for a chaingun-based character, and you have to take 2 levels of SoB to even be able to take levels of Triggerhappy, so it's asking a lot to ask that Finesse, which you can get at the very beginning of the game AND which unlocks two (more than any other single trait in the game) other traits, be as powerful as Triggerhappy. All the same, you can see that it's not out of the ballpark of Triggerhappy, in usefulness. Two levels of Finesse, which you need to get the (sometimes extremely important) trait Whizkid, increases your average volume of fire by 20% with weapons like chaingun and plasma rifle; as much as a level of Triggerhappy in the case of chaingun, and better than a level of Triggerhappy in the case of the plasma gun.

The most important situation for Finesse is certainly Angel of Marksmanship, not only for the sake of getting Whizkid to pump up your advanced pistol full of mods, but for its own sake. I don't want to crunch the numbers right now to give exact firing times, especially when someone like Kornel probably could work out those figures more easily than I could, but in Angel of Marksmanship, taking 3 levels of Son of a Gun and putting 2-3 speed mods on your advanced pistol will get you roughly 2 dualshots/second, while taking 2 levels of Finesse in addition will get it down to just under 3 dualshots/second--a very noticeable improvement. This is from memory, though, and maybe someone else can check to see exactly what the numbers are.

I DO agree with you that Finesse might be slightly underpowered, but not by much--dropping firing time by 15% instead of 10% might be a good idea but any more than that and I think Finesse would suddenly come alongside Eagle Eye as a "must-have" trait.

[rekenne]

Actually, it gets down to about 3 dualshots per second. I forget my build and if it that was including the Blaster or not, but I remember getting down to about .36s per dualshot. IT's been too long since I've down any real good AoMr runs to post exact numbers.

I wouldn't say finesse is useless - It's just not as useful as other things. It works for certain builds and it doesn't work for other builds.

[Titt]

I have definitely had it down to .34, and maybe .32 (I don't remember well enough), seconds/dualshot, but that was definitely with Blaster.