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[Sheltem]

First time I got down to Cybie. Though I should have used the nuke.
Dunno how strong Cybie is - how many damage he can take, but I had no chance to get cover.
Really annoying to see how people beat another insane Challenge or UV or kill the demon on the 5th try.

I even needed 20 Marines to get there. 4 had a really good chance to get down but died by YASudden/StupidD.
e.g. Sheltem14 stepped into a Lava Pit to grab some 100ammo, it looked like he couldnt see the Lava, ouch.
Sheltem16 used the Anti Freak Jakal to kill a BoH punching him .. why got this damn bastard that close so fast ??
An uncounted earlier incarnation of mine faced his first Mancubus with 50% health, whiel switching his rocket launcher ... he died.

Of course rougelikes are about experience, but should/can I really spend my whole life to experience some aspects of a game ? You know,
most time will be spent to get down there again and eventually, die again - no new experience, hours wasted, frustration rising. *demands a prevention for YASD's*
... So my other incarnations made a quick decision if they couldnt find a combat shooty be[for]e Hell's Arena ...
Its all about experience; Sheltem20 ventured into the Vaults, and left it, not knowing how to get in there - I actually think I will never WANT to get in there.
Same thing about Unholy Cathredral - no weapons ?!! wtf ??? hell, let's get out of there.
It's not that critical to leave me without a 100% killrate, but how ever to find out the meaning of "You shiver from cold..." ?

What I hate most is that your ability to dodge is just based on luck. First Marines I sent into hell, died by some Imp-Firebolts -.- I cannot run always. When most enemys step into our LOS they will start to fire, eventually hitting you hard and reducing your life which is crucial as you might not find enough health, and leaving you doomed ... somewhere on Level um .. 23.
The experience with my first Mancubus made me skill for intuition. Imagine your want to kill some little h, but then you notice that there are much stronger enemies hiding and something has walked in your back .. B's O's V's everywhere *uhoh* ...
Except of this its actually annoying that they behave intelligent ... waiting behind a wall getting first strike when I make the step out of cover.

I surely have more to complain about ... but take a look on this unimportant mortem post now:

--------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (v.0.9.8.10) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 Sheltem20, level 11 Imp Corporal, killed by a Cyberdemon
 on level 25 of the Phobos base.
 He survived 187863 turns and scored 79308 points.
 He didn't like it too rough.

 He killed 577 out of 623 hellspawn. (92%)
 He held his right to remain violent.


 He saved himself 3 times.

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ###########################################################
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  .##.......###...###..............................C........#
  .##.......###...#>#.......................................#
  ..........###...###...###...............##................#
  ......................###...............###...............#
  ......................###...............###...............#
  ................................###.......................#
  ................................###............###........#
  ................................###............###....X...#
  .###............###............................###........#
  .###............###....................###................#
  .###............###....................###................#
  .......................................###................#
  ..........................................................#
  ###########################################################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 0/50   Experience 50662/11
  ToHit +4  ToDmg Ranged +0  ToDmg Melee +0

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

    Finesse        (Level 2)
    Tough as nails (Level 2)
    Eagle Eye      (Level 2)
    Intuition      (Level 3)
    Whizkid        (Level 2)

  EE->EE->Int->Int->Int->Fin->Fin->WK->WK->TaN->TaN->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   nothing
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   modified BFG 9000 (10d8) [50/130] (S1M1A1)
    [c] [ Boots      ]   modified plasteel boots [8/8] (92%) (P)
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   modified combat shotgun (6d3) [6/6] (R1S1M1)

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] advanced rocket launcher (6d7) [1/1] (D1R3)
    [b] modified chaingun (1d6)x5 [19/50] (A2)
    [c] modified plasma rifle (1d9)x8 [40/40] (D1A2)
    [d] shotgun shell (x49)
    [e] rocket (x10)
    [f] power cell (x70)
    [g] power cell (x70)
    [h] power cell (x30)
    [i] small med-pack
    [j] small med-pack
    [k] large med-pack
    [l] large med-pack
    [m] large med-pack
    [n] large med-pack
    [o] thermonuclear bomb

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    91 former humans
    72 former sergeants
    22 former captains
    83 imps
    73 demons
    41 lost souls
    20 cacodemons
    14 barons of hell
    19 hell knights
    14 arachnotrons
    6 former commandos
    3 pain elementals
    9 arch-viles
    10 mancubi
    6 revenants

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
  On level 2 he entered Hell's Arena.
  He left the Arena as a champion!
  On level 6 he stormed the Chained Court.
  On level 9 he witnessed the Wall.
  He massacred the evil behind the Wall!
  On level 13 he ventured into the Halls of Carnage.
  On level 18 he entered the Vaults.
  He came, he saw, but he left.
  On level 22 he was foolish enough to enter the Mortuary!
  On level 22 he found the Angelic Armor!
  He managed to clear the Mortuary from evil!
  On level 23 he entered the Lava Pits.
  He decided it was too hot there.
  Then at last he found Phobos Arena!
  On level 25 he finally was killed by a Cyberdemon.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 You don't have a chainsaw!
 You prepare the BFG 9000!
 The Cyberdemon fires! You are hit! Your red armor is damaged!
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You start running!
 Fire -- Choose target... The missile hits the Cyberdemon.
 Fire -- Choose target... The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The Cyberdemon
 reloads his rocket launcher.
 Fire -- Choose target...
 The Cyberdemon fires! You are hit! Your red armor is completely
 destroyed!
 You use a small med-pack. You feel healed. The Cyberdemon reloads his
 rocket launcher.
 You start running!
 The Cyberdemon fires! You are hit!

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 Before him 19 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 17 of those were killed.
 And 2 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Whizkid was nice, and the R3 rocket launcher came quite handy to prevent another death in the mortuary, but it doesn't give the punch to my marine.
Sadly I had no real chance vs Cybie - his first missle destroyed the pillar, pushed me away, second pushed me to the wall, and I couldnt get away. :-/
How many marines will I have to send to have enough experience :-( ?

Btw, the Angelic Armor was destroyed by an Cacodemon hitting me 4 times in a row. I didnt expected that this damn meatball could live that long :-/

[rekenne]

Really, you can beat DoomRL in the same amount of time as getting to Gehonnom for the first time in Nethack. DoomRL is the easiest RL out there that I've played, and I've played a good dozen or so. The entire point of RLs is exactly what you said - to gain experience and learn from your mistakes. The bonus levels are there just as that. You go into the bonus levels if you feel powerful enough or if you think they're worth it. Some do drain resources unless you're incredibly lucky. Some are a net gain.

Also - 100% kill ratio is only for levels you visit, not including bonus levels.

Finally, what do you want dodging to be based on? RLs aren't real time, it can't be like actual Doom. It has to be based on chance. Some games aren't going to win, even if you play perfect. That's just how the game goes. It's a Roguelike. If you find enough health, if you don't, it's based on the RNG. That's the entire point of the game.

Also, as a hint, there's really not much use for finesse. It's one of the lower tier skills. The only use, IMO, is gaining that last bleeding edge of speed as an Angel of Marksmanship.

[Silhar]

Oh man, seems like I'm not the only with such a bad luck to die just before reaching the target...
Keep trying ! Someday you'll get it. First though, get a piece of cover when shootout begins. Watch your timing. With a bit of good luck, you'll be able to show up, fire and hide again. NEVER charge into Cybie. Hide. He's slow, so running around a single pillar and shooting him while he's turning would work good. HR is also useful here, it increases both dodge chance and moving speed. Remember : open air isn't your friend.
Also, think about a chaingunner character build - it seems to me it's the most user-friendly right now.
It goes like : EE -> SoB -> SoB -> EE -> SoB -> TH -> TH -> EE -> TaN/IM... Not pretty sure, though, so I advise checking any other mortem, especially Blade's ones.

"You shiver from cold" means "there's another passage, so the air is flowing rapidly", which stands for "special level here !". Check DoomRL Wiki, all messages like this are listed there.

That's all for now. Good luck with another attempt. Don't give up, you were so close...

[rekenne]

Yknow. In my opinion, TriggerHappy is a hard sell. Sure, it gives you one extra shot, but it's worse than SoB, per feat. I'd rather go another level of EE or something to keep me alive longer - TaN or Ironman. Either of those are life savers.

[ZZ]

Whom did say that open is not a good thing? Definitely not I. I've killed Cybie with dodging his missiles on open because he aims at the position where you're standing. While he was reloading, I've shooted him. Hellrunner is a needed thing for this technique. My style is no TaN  of Ironman perk(I think they're useless), so I prefer this kind of killing. Triggerhappy is a good thing too, but only if you're using a minigunning char. I don't think EE is a kind of useful thing.

[Silhar]

I am not a chaingun specialist, so I'm sorry for any tactical mistakes I committed. Gotta try it. *sigh*

Also hit'n'hide works much better for me. Yes, I'm a poor piece of noobling, but it still works ! :P

[ZZ]

*demands a prevention for YASD's*

Happy to help, this is my cheating. Have this file, and replace it with the original .bat file. Save and exit. When youenter again, it will create a backup of save file. With this thing I've win my first agme, got tired of endless going through levels. Get it if you wan't it

[rekenne]

There's no way to prevent taking damage, so TaN and Ironman are amazing. 10 extra max HP is +20% from norm - Another hit or two from most anything. TaN makes Arachnotrons and Commandos pathetic, tho it's probably the weaker of the two. But... Being in Red Armor with TaN 3 and taking only a few points of damage from an Arachnotron firing at you is amazing.

And, especially now that accuracy has been made more important, EE is amazingly useful. What's the point of all the SoBs in the world if you never hit? Unless you're going entirely shotgun, I suppose.

[Titt]

And, especially now that accuracy has been made more important, EE is amazingly useful. What's the point of all the SoBs in the world if you never hit? Unless you're going entirely shotgun, I suppose.

For a chaingun character, I think it's a matter of taste whether you take 2 levels or 3 levels of EE. Anything less than 2 levels of EE will be a problem, though.

[Blade]

Imho the best build for a chaingun character:

EE->EE->SoB->SoB->Cat->Cat->SoB->TH->TH->TaN->TaN->TaN->anything you want (i prefer IM, Fin, or HR (to make sure Cybie won't be a problem))

EE*2 is a must, without it Triggerhappy just increasing amount of ammo that will hit the wall right behind the enemy. Also without it Cat's Eye is useless too. EE*3 does not make any difference (or at least not the difference, on which you should spend one more levelup). SoB - without questions. Cat's Eye - either it, or Intuition. But Cat's Eye is better because it helps even on it's first level, which is important with an early HKs and BoHs on UV. And it does not have "out of view" penalty. TH is very useful, for me that is without doubts. And TaN because it's nice to have some additional protection on later levels, where you can't be sure that you will have time to change armor. Just to avoid Another Stupid/Sudden Death.

[Sheltem]

thx for your advice

you said cybie is very slow, but I didnt had a chance to run away. maybe the red armor made me too slow.
As dodging is base on chance, I decided to skill HR on my first tries - but the imps on L2 still roasted me -.-
I will try to hellrun more next time : )

I played an AoM challenge after this game. First levels went quite easy, until I came to level 21 - I opened a door to the right an saw 2 V's an 3 R's O_O ... closed the door and ran away hoping that they cant open doors. I opened a door to the left, stepped through ... and saw another V -.- ... one V from the right as walked in my back and I was quite ... cornered.
I bioforced around to get out of this danger, but got cornered by 3 Revenants ready to fire ...
Now I would have to do run down 20 levels again and possibly meet 4 V's again ... thats a very boring part of rougelikes, although a single game of DoomRL does not last that long, its frustrating that the same unsolvable problems can apear again after hours of play.

I didn't play DoomRL for a while since then ... my need for rougelike seems to be satisfied