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Author Topic: Inspired by Thomas and his talk of a Shotty build...  (Read 4037 times)

rekenne

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Inspired by Thomas and his talk of a Shotty build...
« on: December 05, 2008, 12:07 »

So, ok. I've always been a fan of the rapid fire guns and pistol builds, so I've never really done a shotgun game. Back in ye old days, I don't think it was nearly as viable as it is now.Seeing Thomas's talk in another topic, I figured I'd try it.

The build he posted involved rel rel SM then a mix of HR and TaN. Which, makes sense, you want to get to SM as soon as possible. Now, with SM, are Combat Shotties still better than normal shotguns? Seems that SM makes them lose their advantage.

Now, for something that's killed me in my last 3 attempts at shotgunnery: How do you take care of levels/rooms with too damn many barrels? Do you just dread barrelful levels?

Finally: Are there any guaranteed Double Shotties? Again, as someone that's never done a Shottie build, this isn't something I've noticed.
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Thomas

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Re: Inspired by Thomas and his talk of a Shotty build...
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2008, 18:54 »

Barrels: They're only really a problem if they're close to you, right? So destroy any barrels that'd be on your end of a gunfight before bothering to fight anything.

SM and Combat Shotties: Combat Shotguns are still better. If for some strange reason you need to stand still while fighting (Note: This is almost never) then you can pump with R. Pumping being faster than reloading. But for general moving around combat, they're exactly the same.

Double Shotties: I believe there's one in the armory, if you're still missing one when you get there. Double shotguns are rare, but almost all of my doomguys see at least one lying around on their trip to the cyberdemon.
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Arch-Vile Chaos Major Thomas
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Ischaldirh

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Re: Inspired by Thomas and his talk of a Shotty build...
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2008, 03:40 »

Is shottyman of any real use whatsoever if you find an assault shotgun?
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Thomas

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Re: Inspired by Thomas and his talk of a Shotty build...
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2008, 08:25 »

Yes, because a double shotgun does twice as much damage as the assault shotgun, which means half as many turns standing still like an idiot.

(i.e Yes, it does matter, because you wouldn't use it anyway and keep the double shotgun)
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rekenne

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Re: Inspired by Thomas and his talk of a Shotty build...
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2008, 08:49 »

A Double Shotty is worth keeping around on a non-shottyman build for how insane the damage output of it is.
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LockeCarnelia

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Re: Inspired by Thomas and his talk of a Shotty build...
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2008, 16:42 »

As a player who LOVES playing a Shotty build on all occasions, I have to answer you this: A Shotty build is not only a fun idea, it's a good idea.

Shottyman makes the Combat Shotgun into not just a transitionary weapon from Pistol to Chaingun, but to one of the finest examples of semi-auto firepower known to the game.

The Double-Barreled Shotty will be your mainstay in almost all combat situations, with MASSIVE power in those two dinky little barrels.  Just be sure to have Shottyman before using it exclusively, after all, the reload time is a pain without Shottyman.  The main thing that makes the Double-Barreled Shotty so effective is not just the fact that it does so much damage, but the fact that non-human enemies seem to enjoy getting closer to you as you shoot at them, allowing you to dispatch them easier and easier as they get closer and closer.

Your main threats in DoomRL are Captains and Commandos, with the Plasma and the Chaingun.  They can often hit you better from far distances better than you can hit them, and so if you have a wide open space between you and them, you're likely to end up toast unless you get a lot of luck.  Very few other things offer any real challenge, as Hell Knights usually fall within 2-3 DBS close range shots, and pretty much everything else just doesn't pose too much of a threat.

One of the key things to remember about a shotty build, however, is that you cannot, and I MEAN cannot, rely on just your shotguns to pull you through everything.  Sometimes, a chaingun or a rocket launcher is almost needed in order to effectively dispatch your foes, and putting a point into Eagle Eye helps with this.  In the game I'm currently playing, I have the Minigun, and it has helped me out so much you would not believe it, despite the fact that people say it cannot hit a single thing.

Uniques to CERTAINLY look out for:
Assault Shotgun: This is the second best unique for a Shotty build to use, the reasons why are simple.  Shottyman works with it, and it doesn't load just one shell, it loads EVERY shell, automatically.  Along with that, there are times where you should just stand your ground and gun.  The Assault Shotgun DEFINITELY helps with that.

Pancor Jackhammer: This is THE best Unique for a Shotty build, due to the fact that it is basically a 3-shot Double Barreled Shotgun, AKA: DBS on crack.  I have not had the fortune to actually use one of these, but I have absolutely no doubts in my mind that this thing will tear your enemies to shreds.

Gothic Set: You might ask me, "Why?  Why would you want to slow yourself down so much with such bulky armor?"  The answer is simple: Superior Firepower leads to Superior Results, this is true, but without a solid shell of armor to keep you using that Superior Firepower, you're toast.  With the Gothic Armor, you need not fear even Commandos.  Although you may move towards them ploddingly, you can laugh as the plasma does a measly 1 hp damage every single time it hits, before blowing their head off with a DBS.  Plus, Knockback is your enemy in this game.
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Thomas

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Re: Inspired by Thomas and his talk of a Shotty build...
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2008, 20:49 »

Your main threats in DoomRL are Captains and Commandos, with the Plasma and the Chaingun.  They can often hit you better from far distances better than you can hit them, and so if you have a wide open space between you and them, you're likely to end up toast unless you get a lot of luck.  Very few other things offer any real challenge, as Hell Knights usually fall within 2-3 DBS close range shots, and pretty much everything else just doesn't pose too much of a threat.

Wrong. You say "A lot of luck" but captains have a base accuracy of around 50%.
Strafing them (That is, moving in a direction that would theoretically dodge their bullets) makes it 20%.
Hellrunner 2 (Or switching on "Running") reduces that to 1%.

Once you get hellrunner 3, you can turn on running and strafe just about anything for a 1% hitchance. The only thing a shotgunner needs to worry about ALL the time is things that don't miss, like revenants and arch-viles. Everything else is only scary if you're tired. (But you can heal away tiredness anyway)

And then you say "And nothing else poses a threat" as though Arch-Viles and Revenants don't exist. How exactly are you killing them? With a BFG? Because I can tell you right now it's not going to happen if you use a double shotgun.

Quote
One of the key things to remember about a shotty build, however, is that you cannot, and I MEAN cannot, rely on just your shotguns to pull you through everything.  Sometimes, a chaingun or a rocket launcher is almost needed in order to effectively dispatch your foes, and putting a point into Eagle Eye helps with this.  In the game I'm currently playing, I have the Minigun, and it has helped me out so much you would not believe it, despite the fact that people say it cannot hit a single thing.

True. I can only do a "Shells only, that includes drop pistol at start" game on HNTR. Anything higher and I lug around other weapons.

Quote
Pancor Jackhammer: This is THE best Unique for a Shotty build, due to the fact that it is basically a 3-shot Double Barreled Shotgun, AKA: DBS on crack.  I have not had the fortune to actually use one of these, but I have absolutely no doubts in my mind that this thing will tear your enemies to shreds.

Quoted for truth.

Quote
Gothic Set: You might ask me, "Why?  Why would you want to slow yourself down so much with such bulky armor?"  The answer is simple: Superior Firepower leads to Superior Results, this is true, but without a solid shell of armor to keep you using that Superior Firepower, you're toast.  With the Gothic Armor, you need not fear even Commandos.  Although you may move towards them ploddingly, you can laugh as the plasma does a measly 1 hp damage every single time it hits, before blowing their head off with a DBS.  Plus, Knockback is your enemy in this game.

Now you've almost gotten this right. Gothic armor is very good, if you can get that before level 20 then you're almost definatly going to win (Provided you can GET to level 20). Gothic boots suck and I would never wear them unless I was in the lava pits.

Knockback may be your enemy, but movespeed is your greatest ally. The whole point of a shotgun game is to strafe and dodge until you're close enough to kill everything in 1-2 shots. If this takes 20 seconds instead of 5 because you're wearing gothic boots like a moron, they're eventually going to get several lucky hits on you. As such, gothic armor isn't worth the trouble it causes UNTIL you see revenants (Which, again, never miss anyway so movespeed doesn't matter).
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Arch-Vile Chaos Major Thomas
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Inspired by Thomas and his talk of a Shotty build...
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2008, 07:37 »

Actually Revenants DO miss. They either hit you directly (100% damage), or the square you were standing on (50% damage).
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LockeCarnelia

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Re: Inspired by Thomas and his talk of a Shotty build...
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2008, 09:43 »

Actually, I've killed Revenants and Archviles with a Double Barreled Shotgun before.  I had a bit of cover, but I handled them without too much problems, with only red armor.  Worked fine for me.  And admittedly, I haven't faced the Cyberdemon, but obviously, you don't want to try and kill it with a DBS.  XD

I used a Health Pack in the middle of the fight, yes, but fortunately, that wall held up between me and two Revenants, and I just kept piling DBS blasts into the room until they died.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 10:24 by LockeCarnelia »
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Thomas

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Re: Inspired by Thomas and his talk of a Shotty build...
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2008, 01:43 »

Actually Revenants DO miss. They either hit you directly (100% damage), or the square you were standing on (50% damage).

Well that's still no fair and I will still hate them forever.

Actually, I've killed Revenants and Archviles with a Double Barreled Shotgun before.  I had a bit of cover, but I handled them without too much problems, with only red armor.  Worked fine for me.  And admittedly, I haven't faced the Cyberdemon, but obviously, you don't want to try and kill it with a DBS.  XD

I used a Health Pack in the middle of the fight, yes, but fortunately, that wall held up between me and two Revenants, and I just kept piling DBS blasts into the room until they died.

Ah, but you needed cover and a large HP pack. Most of the time none of that stuff is necessary. As such they're still one of the more dangerous things for a shotgunner in the entire game. Heck, without cover (Unlikely, but possible) you would've had to either bypass them or use 2-3 packs.

Also cyberdemon is easier using the DBS and shottyman than he is using the BFG. You move when he fires (Running bonus + Strafe bonus = He always misses) and fire when he reloads. The BFG can also do this, but you'll eventually need to stand still and reload, at which point he will peg you with one rocket.
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Arch-Vile Chaos Major Thomas
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LockeCarnelia

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Re: Inspired by Thomas and his talk of a Shotty build...
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2008, 14:18 »

True about the Cyberdemon, yeah.

I'm very much an in-your-face DoomRL player, I like coming in like a tank, that's my basic strategy.  It makes the early game a bit hard, but it gets far easier the higher up in levels I go, since I can afford to go like a tank.
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Captain Trek

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Re: Inspired by Thomas and his talk of a Shotty build...
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2008, 18:51 »

Also cyberdemon is easier using the DBS and shottyman than he is using the BFG. You move when he fires (Running bonus + Strafe bonus = He always misses) and fire when he reloads. The BFG can also do this, but you'll eventually need to stand still and reload, at which point he will peg you with one rocket.

What exactly is the base dodge bonus and how much does going diagonally add to it? I know running mode adds +20% and HR adds +10%, but it'd be nice to know what the underlying chance to dodge is...
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Thomas

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Re: Inspired by Thomas and his talk of a Shotty build...
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2008, 01:22 »

What exactly is the base dodge bonus and how much does going diagonally add to it? I know running mode adds +20% and HR adds +10%, but it'd be nice to know what the underlying chance to dodge is...

The strafe bonus adds roughly 60% to your dodge, just guessing from experience.
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Arch-Vile Chaos Major Thomas
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