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Author Topic: Get a room... and lock it. Oh wait, the ceiling...  (Read 5183 times)

thelaptop

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Get a room... and lock it. Oh wait, the ceiling...
« on: December 06, 2009, 07:39 »

So there are two other things that don't seem to be incorporated into DoomRL that exists in vanilla Doom, namely keys+locked doors and crushing ceilings.

Keys+locked doors
So unlike some other rogue-likes, DoomRL doesn't have the concept of a locked door.  In vanilla doom, some doors/pillars were locked with one of the three "primary" keys/keycards (blue, yellow, red), where part of actually winning the game involved finding these keys to unlock the correct doors to progress.  Now, I think it might be a little silly to generate levels where one needs to find the correct coloured keys to open up the right doors in DoomRL, but it would be an interesting mechanic to have doors that can be locked and unlocked with keys.  Couple of reasons why this is a good idea: tactical advantage and giving more credence to "vaults" that are generated in the maps.

Having the ability to lock and unlock doors grant the advantage of being able to "lock out" the denizens, which can provides a boon (catch a breather from the rampaging demons) or a bane (surprise attack from locked up creatures).  This will of course provide yet another resource for management in addition to healing, mods, ammunition and power-ups, which can add more diversity to the game.

Of course, with the ability to lock/unlock doors, it becomes more interesting if we have destructible and non-destructible doors/walls.  Notice in vanilla Doom, doors are usually metal and can eat too much damage without getting blown to bits, as is the wall.  DoomRL is a little divergent with doors blastable by shotguns and walls destroyed by rockets, but it would be interesting if we had different classes of materials for the door and walls.  This will add on to the introduction of keys and provide more tactical diversity rather than just running and shooting blindly (okay, not so blindly).

Crushing Ceilings
Early players of vanilla Doom find that there are some levels where a moving ceiling will destroy them by crushing.  Some of the more advanced players capitalise on that and use it to kill cretins.  Adding crushing ceilings that do non-trivial amounts of damage in a fairly regular interval gives the player two important things: more tactical choices, and having a better sense of game time.

Ever been destroyed by a large Vile-pack because you didn't have enough firepower to take them on?  Having crushing ceilings make it tactically more exciting because one can lure mobs to special "kill" zones to help them win.  Note this is different from the kill lever that is already present -- kill levers need to be activated by hand, but crushing ceilings are completely regular in timing.

A sense of game timing is also a useful skill to have, since each discrete action taken by the player does not always correspond to the same amount of turns or in-game time.  By pegging the crushing ceilings to a regular period in-game, players need to pay more attention to using it to their tactical advantage, which gives them a deeper appreciation of the underlying mechanics of the game, and that makes them better players.

Alright, I wrote a lot.  Comments?
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Journey

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Re: Get a room... and lock it. Oh wait, the ceiling...
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2009, 08:06 »

Yes - something like keys/locked doors occurred to me as well, and you've articulated the advantages of such a mechanic well.  And crushing ceilings sounds fun too.
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ZZ

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Re: Get a room... and lock it. Oh wait, the ceiling...
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2009, 08:12 »

Keys were suggested before, so no commenting this.

As for crushing cellings -> they is already some sort of this implemented as lava/acid. Seriouly, it's just a damager on a constant place. No serious difference with the lava/acid isn't precent.
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thelaptop

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Re: Get a room... and lock it. Oh wait, the ceiling...
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2009, 08:26 »

As for crushing cellings -> they is already some sort of this implemented as lava/acid. Seriouly, it's just a damager on a constant place. No serious difference with the lava/acid isn't precent.

I agree with you that it is a damager on a constant place, but the timing difference in which damage is applied is different.  If timed correctly, you can run through a crushing ceiling without taking damage while whichever thing is chasing you has an unfortunate encounter, but for acid/lava, you take damage all the time.

Like I said, just a variation on the tactics that can be used.  Terrain based tactics are probably as interesting as normal manoeuvring techniques based on traits.
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Melon

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Re: Get a room... and lock it. Oh wait, the ceiling...
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2009, 10:47 »

1) I do not like the idea of the crushing ceiling because you couldn't determine the "pattern of crushing".
If player moves one tile per 0,78 seconds and the ceiling drops down every one second and rises up every one second it means that the players' moves are completely unsynchronized with the "dropping" ceiling. You could see the ceiling rising and lowering, you decide it is time to step in and *BAM* you are crushed to death [;
However one time lowering ceiling would be great idea.

2) Hm, there were destructible walls in Doom I or Doom ][? |:
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bfg9001

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Re: Get a room... and lock it. Oh wait, the ceiling...
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2009, 12:29 »

How exactly would you represent the ceiling at its different heights, though?
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thelaptop

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Re: Get a room... and lock it. Oh wait, the ceiling...
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2009, 16:44 »

How exactly would you represent the ceiling at its different heights, though?

"Shadow" in the ground.  Remember those dots?  Well, they can start off white, become gray, and then when it is nearly down, all black.
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thelaptop

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Re: Get a room... and lock it. Oh wait, the ceiling...
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2009, 16:46 »

1) I do not like the idea of the crushing ceiling because you couldn't determine the "pattern of crushing".
If player moves one tile per 0,78 seconds and the ceiling drops down every one second and rises up every one second it means that the players' moves are completely unsynchronized with the "dropping" ceiling. You could see the ceiling rising and lowering, you decide it is time to step in and *BAM* you are crushed to death [;
However one time lowering ceiling would be great idea.

Nah, one second crushing ceilings are impossible -- vanilla Doom doesn't even have that.  It could be along the lines of 5 seconds or more from up to down and then 5 seconds from down to up again; no sense calling it a tactical diversity if the ceiling does not give time for it to be used.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Get a room... and lock it. Oh wait, the ceiling...
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2009, 18:52 »

I'd have to "nay" that, for the same reason as Specters -- they'd make you have to strain your eyes and watch carefully, not to get instakilled.
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thelaptop

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Re: Get a room... and lock it. Oh wait, the ceiling...
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2009, 19:06 »

I'd have to "nay" that, for the same reason as Specters -- they'd make you have to strain your eyes and watch carefully, not to get instakilled.

Though there's always one thing that bugs me a fair bit.  Why are we only using the foreground colours of the console?  Most "dumb" consoles give at least 8 background colours to use, which might be exploitable some how to highlight certain features?
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UnderAPaleGreySky

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Re: Get a room... and lock it. Oh wait, the ceiling...
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2009, 05:17 »

Most "dumb" consoles give at least 8 background colours to use, which might be exploitable some how to highlight certain features?
Ah, I remember something like this from playing UnNetHack..
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Cyber Killer

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Re: Get a room... and lock it. Oh wait, the ceiling...
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2009, 06:07 »

I'm against the crushing ceilings on the same base as Kornel said - it would be hard to determine where the ceiling is @ the moment. But crushing walls... now that's another story...

take a look at this example room:

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now, let's add a crushing wall moving at 1 tile per turn:

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/...#
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/...#
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/...#
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easy to see, a clear idea on how to avoid it (if the wall moves on the tile where anything is standing it should be pushed aside in the direction where the wall is moving)

Code: [Select]
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#.?@/
/...#
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/.@.#
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and as deadly as the falling celling if not more (you can't back up to the door that is covered by the wall.

What do you think?

Well maybe the concept of a filled moving wall is somewhat abstract, especially where there would be no place to keep the moving block when it's open, but a single line of wall would be not so clear to comprehend.
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Kornel Kisielewicz

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Re: Get a room... and lock it. Oh wait, the ceiling...
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2009, 06:13 »

A lot better, but I'd leave such features for DoomRL 2, especially that this would need some reworking in level store structure.
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