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[Gargulec]

So, here are the basics:

Current Berserk effects are halved- so it gives you 3 armor instead of 6 etc. etc. Yes, a radical nerf...

BUT:

Berserk effects now stack- so, every time when you should enter berserk but you are zerking already, you do not only get additional time for crazy bloodshed, but also all bonuses from the state of battle madness are added to your current bonuses- so, after second berserk, the bonuses are like they were pre-nerf, after third it is 12 armor and 3x melee damage, after fourth 18 armor and 4x melee damage and so on.

Also, remember that Berserer trait is 'damage-based' so, after few berserks, you go on true spree.

BUT!

First: if you heal yourself, while berserking, by a means different then picking up another zerk-pack (or Vampyre!), berserk effects end. Like in BersekerRL
Furthermore: after third berserk effect on you, you begin to loose health when not in melee, at a rate of single HP per turn. After fourth effect, you loose health every turn you do not kill an enemy, at the above rate. After fifth, you loose health anyway. After sixth, seventh... the rate doubles.


Why did I find this system interesting?
-First: it would make AoB more berserkish. To engage difficult foes, you would need to be on a killing spree already.
-Second: it would it more satisfactory- who does not love insanely high damage bonuses?
-Third: it would make endgame AoB easier.
-Fourth: it would add another layer to AoB tactics- the need time the berserk properly, to kill everything you would want to kill, but not killing yourself in the process.

Faults of this system:
-I have no idea about how would it fare on N!
-It would make early AoB even harder
-It may be overcomplicated.

Opinions?


The New Berserk System For AoB v. 0.2

Berserk states:

The number is the count of separate berserk levels on player


1:Angered: +3 armour
2:Enraged: +6 armour, x2 melee damage, +4 melee accuracy, 0.8 movespeed, 0.8 attackspeed
3:Furious: +9 armour, x3 melee damage, autohit melee, 0.7 movespeed, 0.7 attackspeed, takes one damage per every turn in which is not in melee
4:Frenzied: +12 armour, x4 melee damage, autohit melee, 0.6 movespeed, 0.6 attackspeed, takes one damage per every turn in which no foe is slain
5:BERSERK!: all damage taken is reduced to 1, x5 melee damage, autohit melee, 0.5 movespeed, 0.5 attackspeed, takes one point of damage per half-second
10:Crazed!: Same as BERSERK, but you take 2 points of damage every half-second.
15:Insane!: Same as BERSERK, but you take 4 points of damage every half-second.

[mikee]

Sounds very berserkerish... but I would probably find it frustrating to play.  It sounds like it would be easy to keep adding levels of berserk without wanting to, thus losing health.  And one thing I've always liked about AoB is that it's fairly binary: berserk good; everything else bad, basically. =P  Still, it is a very interesting idea.

[Gargulec]

Well, you can always empty you berserk by healing. Also, do bear in mind that berserk levles above two are near invincibility, so the damage you take for it appears to be a fair trade, does not it?

[thelaptop]

Well... if you are solo-ing small-ish cretins and accidentally berserk, you'd need to waste a med pack to unberserk yourself as you are walking from one end of the map to the next in search of things to kill.

Not sure if want...

[Gargulec]

Soloing small thing cannot result in more than two zerks, in most of the cases. And those zerks you can just wait off.

Also, if it was not clear: negative (and positive) effect of stacked berserks only count as long as those berserks time of effect overlaps. So, if you've picked a zerk pack, and then, 50 turns later, zerked again, the double zerk bonus is in effect for 50 more turns, not next hundred.

[Cobalt]

the damage increase means more chance of a berserk each hit, so you will get a high level of berserk quite fast. 
I like the idea of berserk stacking, but not this implementation.  Maybe something simpler, like a quarter of your melee damage done on berserk is added to your timer?

[Fanta Hege]

First: if you heal yourself, while berserking, by a means different then picking up another zerk-pack (or Vampyre!), berserk effects end.

Archviles rejoice!



Intresting idea but.. I think this would make things even harder for meelee then they allready are. =/

[Gargulec]

Ok, few more things:

Along with this option, there shuold be an otion to manually calm yourself up by pressing tab- this, however, leaves you tired.


Fatna: It would make it harder in a fun way- you cannot froget that despite the zerk damaging you at certain heights, it also gives insane offensive capabilities.

[Thomas]

I agree with this idea as long as the new berserking effects only apply to AoB.

[Gargulec]

Agreed with Thomas.

[Silhar]

Loved it ! I'd happily see it not only in AoB.

[Thomas]

Berserk states:

The number is the count of separate berserk levels on player

I don't like the fact that once you hit BERSERK! it starts getting worse and worse, and due to your x5 melee damage, it's difficult to stop yourself from becoming even more berserked without tabbing out of it and going back to 0.

I'd suggest making level 5 not as beneficial, but reducing the penalties for going over level 5. (Changes underlined)
1:Angered: +3 armour
2:Enraged: +6 armour, x2 melee damage, +4 melee accuracy, 0.8 movespeed, 0.8 attackspeed
3:Furious: +9 armour, x3 melee damage, autohit melee, 0.7 movespeed, 0.7 attackspeed, takes one damage per every turn in which is not in melee
4:Frenzied: +12 armour, x4 melee damage, autohit melee, 0.6 movespeed, 0.6 attackspeed, takes one damage per every turn in which no foe is slain
5:BERSERK!: all damage taken is reduced to 1, x5 melee damage, autohit melee, 0.5 movespeed, 0.5 attackspeed, takes one point of damage per half-second
10:Crazed!: Same as BERSERK, but you take 2 points of damage every half-second.
15:Insane!: Same as BERSERK, but you take 4 points of damage every half-second.

[Gargulec]

Agreed with what you suggest, updating the first post.

Also: question of master traits. While Vampyre is perfect for such chain-zerk (though I would want it to be renamed 'Fueled By Slaughter'), Blademaster is has little use. So, since MBm represents the finesse approach, it can be tweaked to allow you to have bigger control over your anger. Manually zerking out by tab with MBm lowers your berserk state to angered, instead of dropping it completely.

[UnderAPaleGreySky]

1:Angered: +3 armour
2:Enraged: +6 armour, x2 melee damage, +4 melee accuracy, 0.8 movespeed, 0.8 attackspeed
3:Furious: +9 armour, x3 melee damage, autohit melee, 0.7 movespeed, 0.7 attackspeed, takes one damage per every turn in which is not in melee
4:Frenzied: +12 armour, x4 melee damage, autohit melee, 0.6 movespeed, 0.6 attackspeed, takes one damage per every turn in which no foe is slain
5:BERSERK!: all damage taken is reduced to 1, x5 melee damage, autohit melee, 0.5 movespeed, 0.5 attackspeed, takes one point of damage per half-second
10:Crazed!: Same as BERSERK, but you take 2 points of damage every half-second.
15:Insane!: Same as BERSERK, but you take 4 points of damage every half-second.

Wow. Thats one helluva system. Me likes!

since MBm represents the finesse approach, it can be tweaked to allow you to have bigger control over your anger. Manually zerking out by tab with MBm lowers your berserk state to angered, instead of dropping it completely.

Very cool. This hypothetical revision is looking better and better. And hey, if it never gets implemented, have someone mod it! :P

_{Fixed vote in light of new proposed zerking and MBm system :D}

[yns88]

Why exactly are there penalties for going over level 5? It's just punishing you for killing too much, and I don't see the point there. The concept of moderation in bloodshed is very un-DOOM-like.

Also, I think reduced movement speed would frustrate me because when I'm berserked, I'm always running to the nearest enemies as quickly as possible. The way this is, the effect would just wear off by the time I actually find something to kill.

I haven't played on the harder difficulties, but I haven't seen any problems with the chainsaw's attack damage with Brute 2 and Berserk.

[Gargulec]

First: the movespeed is not reduced, but improved- read 0.8 as 0.8 of normal move speed
Second: this system does not punish you for killing to much- it, in fact, forces you to kill a lot to get proper berserk going on. However, to prevent you from becoming invincible, there are penalties. Also, as I said before, it adds tactics to the AoB- you need to time yourself properly- Game Of Tactical Bloodshed, as somebody once put it.
Third: while chainsaw + brute 2 + berserk is fine for winning, this system was thought to allow player actually BERSERKING (ie. killing everything) through late levels, with all those very high damage and movespeed etc. bonuses.

[yns88]

First: the movespeed is not reduced, but improved- read 0.8 as 0.8 of normal move speed

Ah, this makes much more sense.

Another thing to note: The wiki right now says that Berserk reduces incoming damage by 4x. This means that if you have red armor (or blue armor + TaN 2), then an enemy would have to do 24 damage (approximately the maximum damage of a Revenant rocket) to you just to make you take 2hp of damage. Being Frenzied in this new system, you would take 6hp of damage. So this actually nerfs berserk armor by quite a bit.

Perhaps:
Angered - incoming damage / 2
Enraged - damage / 3
Furious - damage / 4
Frenzied - same as furious
BERSERK! -  all damage is reduced to 1

[Gargulec]

Well, AFAIK, berserk gives you 6 points of additional armor. Try walking on lava while zerked and bootles- you will see taking 6 points of damage, instead of 12.

[yns88]

Maybe the wiki is outdated, then.

[Gargulec]

Also, done a little bit of research about monsters damage, and it would appear that in most of the cases, excluding R's and BoH's, 12 armor is enough to reduce all damage to 'not-dangerous' level.

[raekuul]

Ick.

I really hope that it's impossible to be on Berserk Level 6 or 7 for longer than 5 moves... Other than that concern, I think this might be worth forking off for.

[Gargulec]

Thanks to the sorear, I know know that yns88 was actually right. Berserk quarters the damage. However, it should not change this system. Why? Because the main idea of it is to force player to 'spin-up' before killing the big guys. Opinions.

[Cobalt]

Still don't like it.  It's penalizing the player for playing the game right.  Forcing him to stop killing when he hits a certain threshold is totally arbitrary.  What if you need to tab out but you're in the middle of a crowd of viles and revenants?  Out of luck, I guess.

[Thomas]

Still don't like it.  It's penalizing the player for playing the game right.  Forcing him to stop killing when he hits a certain threshold is totally arbitrary.  What if you need to tab out but you're in the middle of a crowd of viles and revenants?  Out of luck, I guess.

Assuming you've managed to make it to Insane!, you could use a homing phase when you still have 5 or more HP, then tab out before you die. Or use a large medpack to give you just a few more seconds of unstoppable damage (Unless it's decided that healing should reduce your berserk level, but that's good too considering you're at a dangerously high level already)

Also "playing the game right" isn't necessarily about killing everything all the time. All of Kornel's games involve periods of time where you're highly vulnerable, such as when you need to reload a weapon in DoomRL or you have a high pain rating in Berserk!.

This system improves the flow of AoB by making it reasonably easy for DoomGuy to get ludicrous damage bonuses but also give him two moments of vulnerability that you have to work around, namely when he's taking lots of damage from being Crazed/Insane and when he's totally lost all the armour bonuses berserking provides because he tabbed out or stopped killing things recently.

[Cobalt]

AoB is very difficult already.  There's no real need to add another point of vulnerability, especially one that only appears if you are progressing.  If you worked hard to get a berserk timed well to help you defeat difficult enemies, it makes no sense to cripple you for that accomplishment and force you to use resources and/or give up on a pack of enemies because you were doing well against them.

[Gargulec]

Apart from adding points of weakness, this also gives you incredible killing power when the zerk is spun right. Do bear in mind that aboye BERSERK!, you're invincible.

Also, an option: instead of voidng all of your berserk effects when healed, the system goes like this:
Small Helath Globes and Small Health Packs drops your berserk level by five steps.
Large healing items drops you berserk level to 0.

[S.K. Ren]

How about a fail-safe then? If the berserk penalty were to drop you below 1 HP, you retain that 1 HP and lose berserk. I mean either way you're gonna die soon. I personally see no problems with the proposed system. In fact I can see ways of abusing it- very, very badly.

Such as Chained Court... 250s(500s on N!) of lv5 berserk. As long as you don't kill anything or waste time, you can run all the way to lv25 with minimal effort.  Losing 2 hp per second just isn't all that bad. Granted the RNG may put you in a position requiring an emergency heal, thus ending your zerk run early. But say before chained you took all 3 levels of Ironman, giving you 80 HP. That means you could last up to 79 moves (taking 39.5s), before needing a heal. I you got really lucky and landed a supercharge you could last twice that. Which doesn't even use up the entire duration.

What I might suggest is instead taking 1 HP per half-second:
for BERSERK!, make it 4% per second. 2(2/2/3) Dmg; Those with 3 levels of Iro, will take an extra point. Taking damage every second gives you a safety turn to heal move before you bleed out from your raging (since move and act speeds are halved at this level). Compare to 2 Dmg per second as it wouold be in the original suggestion.
for Crazed!, make it 7% per second. 3(4/4/5) Dmg; Again Iro users see a small increase in damage taken. Compare to 4 damage per second as it would be in the original suggestion.
for Insane!, make it 10% per second. 5(6/7/8) Dmg; This level really show the difference. Compare to 8 Dmg per second as it would be in the original suggestion.

Personally I think this looks more balanced. I also assumed that all % would be floored when determining the damage taken.

[Gargulec]

Hwy, I like your failsafe idea very much. And concerning the prcentages, I like them as well but I would want to hear Thomas's opinion on them.

[Passionario]

Also, do bear in mind that berserk levles above two are near invincibility, so the damage you take for it appears to be a fair trade, does not it?

I propose we take the middle man out, and have levels above two boost only the killing power, not survivability.

[Gargulec]

I propose we take the middle man out, and have levels above two boost only the killing power, not survivability.

Too hardcore, sadly. 6 armor is to little to keep you from getting slaughtered..

[UnderAPaleGreySky]

But 6 armour on top of what you may already have isn't. Especially if you've got the LS and Angelic Armour. Even a meager blue armour can help you out of most situations, when added to a +6 zerking armour boost.

[Gargulec]

Hmmm... Any more opinions on that matter?

[Passionario]

Too hardcore, sadly. 6 armor is to little to keep you from getting slaughtered..

6 armor with the ability to one-shot pretty much anybody (x5 damage, autohit, remember?) combined with freakishly fast speed (attack *and* movement), however, will.

Think of it as melee's answer to Ammochain - 'overwhelming amounts of offense as best defense'.

[Gargulec]

Uhm... good point. I'll wait for Thomas to reply, however.

[ZZ]

Besides that that's a good idea, I can add that today this topic is far more than most posted topic. Maybe make it sticky for the time?

[Thomas]

I'm gonna agree with passionaro and SK Ren here.

However, even with SK Ren's idea it doesn't deter people from being a pansy quite enough.

Simple solution: Berserk packs give 2 (or even 3) extra levels instead of one. Berserk packs don't last as long. (Perhaps 30-40 seconds)
                       Any form of 100% or 200% healing (aside from picking up a berserk pack, of course) reduces your berserk level back down to 0.

This solution means that berserk packs will give you a quick fix of berserk (2-3 levels, but it only lasts for 30-40 seconds), good for starting off your killing spree but a poor way of keeping it going. The healing clause just means that unless you have MVp (which would imply you've killed a lot of enemies anyway), it's difficult to keep berserking after 25 seconds, unless you have a lot of small medpacks.

Complex solution: A variable keeps track of how long it's been since you last did a melee attack. The higher it is, the faster your berserk time drains away. This variable is reset back to 0 whenever you go down stairs.

This solution stops people from not killing anything (and gives them a decent way to de-serk without being forced to tab back down to 0) but may make AoB too complex, as there's already a few variables for the berserker to keep track of.

Now that I've typed them out, I think the first solution is better. Or both could be implemented at once.

The new system with passionaro's and SK Ren's ideas added:
1:Angered: +1 armour, x1.5 melee damage, +2 melee accuracy
2:Enraged: +2 armour, x2 melee damage, +4 melee accuracy, 0.8 movespeed, 0.8 attackspeed
3:Furious: +4 armour, x3 melee damage, autohit melee, 0.7 movespeed, 0.7 attackspeed, takes one damage per every turn in which is not in melee
4:Frenzied: +6 armour, x4 melee damage, autohit melee, 0.6 movespeed, 0.6 attackspeed, takes one damage per every turn in which no foe is slain
5:BERSERK!: +12 armour, x5 melee damage, autohit melee, 0.5 movespeed, 0.5 attackspeed, takes 4% of maxHP damage per second.
10:Crazed!: Same as BERSERK!, but you take 7% of maxHP damage per second.
15:Insane!: Same as BERSERK!, but you take 10% of maxHP damage per second.

EDIT: I was going to change this a little bit, but then gargulec posted a simpler idea so I've edited to his.

[Gargulec]

I'm gonna agree with passionaro and SK Ren here.

However, even with SK Ren's idea it doesn't deter people from being a pansy quite enough.

Simple solution: Berserk packs give 2 (or even 3) extra levels instead of one. Berserk packs don't last as long. (Perhaps 30-40 seconds)
                       Any form of 100% or 200% healing (aside from picking up a berserk pack, of course) reduces your berserk level back down to 0.

This solution means that berserk packs will give you a quick fix of berserk (2-3 levels, but it only lasts for 30-40 seconds), good for starting off your killing spree but a poor way of keeping it going. The healing clause just means that unless you have MVp (which would imply you've killed a lot of enemies anyway), it's difficult to keep berserking after 25 seconds, unless you have a lot of small medpacks.

Complex solution: A variable keeps track of how long it's been since you last did a melee attack. The higher it is, the faster your berserk time drains away. This variable is reset back to 0 whenever you go down stairs.

This solution stops people from not killing anything (and gives them a decent way to de-serk without being forced to tab back down to 0) but may make AoB too complex, as there's already a few variables for the berserker to keep track of.

Now that I've typed them out, I think the first solution is better. Or both could be implemented at once.

The new system with passionaro's and SK Ren's ideas added:
1:Angered: +1 armour, x1.5 melee damage, +2 melee accuracy
2:Enraged: +2 armour, x2 melee damage, +4 melee accuracy, 0.8 movespeed, 0.8 attackspeed
3:Furious: +4 armour, x3 melee damage, autohit melee, 0.7 movespeed, 0.7 attackspeed, takes one damage per every turn in which is not in melee
4:Frenzied: +6 armour, x4 melee damage, autohit melee, 0.6 movespeed, 0.6 attackspeed, takes one damage per every turn in which no foe is slain
5:BERSERK!: +6 armour, x5 melee damage, autohit melee, 0.5 movespeed, 0.5 attackspeed, takes 4% of maxHP damage per second.
10:Crazed!: Same as BERSERK, but you take 7% of maxHP damage per second.
15:Insane!: Same as BERSERK, but you take 10% of maxHP damage per second.

This. Totally agree. And Simple Solution is just way better. BUT: BERSERK! should give almost total protections. So, either 12, not 6 armor, or old way- all damage revived is reduced to one. If it is just 6 armor, BERSERKING! is more dangerous that useful.

[ZZ]

If it was intended to force the player to think twice before not killing anything, why Crazed!&Insane! is worse than BERSERK!. I think that +6 is okay, but on Crazed it'll change to +12, and the insane lasts less, but is invincible except of that 10% hp-. ANoter thought that it could eat CurHP, it'll make when you have little HP, you're berserking at no cost.

[Frankosity]

The berserk changes I would appreciate the most would be for the Berserker trait to activate on taking damage as dealing it, with the chance either way increasing the lower the player's health is.

I think I could get behind the idea of berserk effects 'stacking' as has been suggested.

[felttippen]

Well i´m not too sure about alll those suggestions, but one thing was evident when i gave the beta a spin: i couldnt even get my foot in the door on N!,/ got my ass handed over SEVERAL times.sergeant are even deadlier now, and even formers can kill you.
                            id say, the only problem we really need to fix is: give large meds the zerk ability!You could balance it by reducing the starting meds to one, but it would be oh so helpful.Chained court could be reachable this way, because right now, your only chance is that a zerk globe spawns right next to you, and that you can find the stairs befor it wears off.

[Gargulec]

                            id say, the only problem we really need to fix is: give large meds the zerk ability!You could balance it by reducing the starting meds to one, but it would be oh so helpful.Chained court could be reachable this way, because right now, your only chance is that a zerk globe spawns right next to you, and that you can find the stairs befor it wears off.

No. No. No. And no. It was like that long time ago, and was changed for a reason. Also, AoB in current beta is broken.

[felttippen]

No. No. No. And no. It was like that long time ago, and was changed for a reason. Also, AoB in current beta is broken.

whoa man, how bout you calm down a little?
i understand that you have a nice idea going and all, but lets reconsider:

-if we only give the starting meds this ability,the player could save him or herself once from a tight situation,and as we all know getting started is where AoBs broken, cuz your bound to receive overkill from formers and imps,not to mention captains, Knights souls and demons.
They all appear as soon as dlvl 3 where by now you most likely used all your meds if playing on nightmare.Its simply a dead end with buffed monsters, and your proposed system needs the berserker trait to work, but in my opinion its a little complicated to understand whats going on or what your bonuses/penalties are, or from who where or what you receive damage.I imagine it to be confusing.

[Gargulec]

I refuse to speak about N! before Dervis gives us a word. I am playing HMP, not N!.

[yns88]

I still think there hasn't been any true reason proposed as to why people should get punished for going on a rampage, especially with such draconian damages added.

If you don't want things to get so out of hand, maybe remove the CRAZED and INSANE modifiers and have the player's berserk level capped at 5. This means that if you're plowing your way through monsters you don't have to worry about your own body doing more damage to you than the monsters surrounding you, and likewise you won't get the silliness of having persistent berserk for 3 dungeon levels after the City of Skulls, since there's a cap to your berserk duration.

Also, +6 armor is really not enough. I think the current damage/4 is overpowered, but +6 armor would probably make AoB MUCH more difficult than it already is. There wasn't anything overpowered with the initially proposed +3/+6/+12/+999. As I pointed out earlier, having +12 armor is about equivalent to the current Berserk effect.

[leonresevil2]

Gosh, this topic is complicated.  Truthfully. I mean, no stat factors in DoomRL or Berserk! are that complicated as I can see. Really, if new players have to read pages of info and try to understand it just to play a single challenge (AoB) or play as one of the more difficult character builds, people will not want to do it. Playing melee would become even less popular. Really, compare the 3 or so melee uniques to the over 30 ranged weapons. That is a decent sign of the popularity of melee.
I do not like the idea of punishing the player for being on a killing streak. As far as I can recall, even the BerserkRL game does not damage the player for being on a streak (that may be completely wrong though, I'm sorry). Berserk does remove Berserking after healing, however.

Berserking in DoomRL, AFAIK is like a steriod-infused blood lust. The original Doom may have damaged the player while zerking (IDK, I was never sure about it, if I was getting shot or not) but I do not like the idea for damaging the player for picking up a pack or fighting enemies.

Compared to Ammochain builds, melee characters could use all the help they can get IMO. Stacking up Berserks, getting good weapons, ignoring damage, it's all good when you have to be in a monster's face to kill them most of the time. As said earlier, "Berserking is good, everything else is bad". I say, don't punish the player (taking away ranged weapons is punishment enough), don't make it complex, don't fix what wasn't broken.

[OsloWoodworks]

The issue I see with this berserk system is that 3/4s of the proposed berserk levels are strict downgrades from current berserk pack bonuses.

If I understand correctly, Berserk status gives X2 Melee damage, +40% move speed, +40% attack speed, and -75% to damage taken.

This is enough to two-shot just about anything already with the chainsaw, even before the Brute bonuses.  If you get the Longinus Spear, it's usually enough to one-shot everything with just the X2 damage bonus.  So for the most part, the bonus damage is overkill.  Autohit's not necessary either, since Brute(3) gives 98% melee accuracy.

The damage drain is a bit much too, since seconds pass by very quickly.  Losing even 2% per second will drop HP by 20-40% just crossing small rooms.  Not to mention knockback from former sergeants, losing HP just trying to close in.

The bonus damage proposed would help when limited to combat knives and fists, as that's when it'd be useful before the Chained Court.  The problem with that implementation is that consecutive berserk packs early on are very rare, and Berserker trait doesn't open up until level 3 at the earliest, so it'd be very tough to get any rolling bonus going before the Chained Court.

Maybe if AoB greatly increased berserk pack spawns this concept (cumulative bonuses) would work to make the early game easier, but right now there feels like a good balance on berserk effects.

[Stormlock]

What about adding knockback resistance to the levels? Seems very in theme to me and would be quite useful.