DRL > Requests For Features

Rogue Like Doom or Doom Like Rogue?

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Kornel Kisielewicz:
Duh, this will be a loong reply.

I generally agree with Aerton, so I'll just comment on the last post :).

As for the moving while shooting you CAN do that if carefully calculating. Take a fast weapon and speed traits and you can move and fire in the same time while the enemies fire. As for the slower-than-one-turn projectiles -- believe me - this is a BIG NO-NO. Firstly - it makes a ununderstandable mess on the screen -- in a ASCII turnbased game you have no way to indicate the direction of the projectiles. I've seen some slower-than-turn ASCII roguelike tech demos and they all looked ugly. The second problem is that it would make single enemies far to weak. Imagine fighting the Cyberdemon in such a game. Third - it woould drastically reduce the pace of the game. You would spend a lot more time trying to outguess those missiles and less time just firing and charging madly.

As for missions -- I think I will upgrade the plot a little ;-].

Quoting: STL6- Please add Mancubus... >:)
Actually the biggest pain in that is doing the ASCII art ^_^

Quoting: STL7- This is hard, but how about having an idea of front (so you do not see far behind your back). this would allow monsters attacign from behind... doom style.. Yay...
I plan adding facing to another game (if I ever pull it off). But believe me, that is not a trivial thing and would need a helluva lot rebalancing.

Quoting: STL8- Mentioned many times, but i have an addition to that: Backpack. Backpack is a nice idea, but I think inventory management is a great dimension of the game.
Your idea of the backpack would greatly increase the interface complexity (and code complexity too ^_^). I think a far easier and nicer solution is for the backpack to increase the amount of ammo that you can hold in one slot. Which is much true to Doom BTW :>

Quoting: STL- I'd like to have an easy way to switch the item laying on the ground with an item in the inventory, or even something you are wearing.
How do you imagine that "interface-wise"?

Quoting: STL- I believe quick weapon switching keys should equip the weapon of the type that has most ammunition inside. I sometimes use switch rather than reload strategy... Lets say I have two shotguns, I fire one, I switch to pistol, when I switch back to shotgun I sould get the full one, not the empty..
True. I'll look into that.

Quoting: STL10- How about weapon modifications that you can carry, and apply to a weapon? And maybe more than one... Rapid fastload advanced bfg... hell yea.
Yeah, I had that idea -- DeusEx style :P --  we'll see :)

Quoting: STLHow about "advanced phase device", where you can choose where to go (or do you have that already I never get past lvl 14 yet)?
LoL, that would make two places WAY to easy :>

Quoting: STLthis has been suggested before, and I back it: Monsters attacking monsters, it adds quite a deal of strategy to the game.
True, but I need to completely rewrite the AI system for that to work nice :/

Quoting: STL13- Secret doors? doors that look like walls.. They may just be opened or player migh need to perform another action (search) to find them.
That would only add a tedious and boring action to the game. Also you can't  hide anything considering that the levels are fixed size, so why the hell bother with hidden doors? :)

Quoting: STL14- The Wall and locked rooms. I believe these suck. There should be a way to get these open without explosives, since there is no guarantee, the player can have explosives (=rocket) at that time. Locked doos can have keys placed in the level.
That's the whole point -- sometimes you can, sometimes you can't :). The main secret of the game also depends on ridiculous luck :D.

Quoting: STLActually 14 gave me an idea, how about c-4 that you can carry around, and deploy (like thermie but much much much smaller blast , say somewhat like barrels?).
I don't see any use for it except for blowing up walls in special levels.

Quoting: STLI think it's enough for now.

Keep it coming, I need inspiration now :D

P.S. I fixed the "quote" button. I hope... :P

Aerton:
Quoting: Kornel KisielewiczThis is hard, but how about having an idea of front (so you do not see far behind your back). this would allow monsters attacign from behind... doom style.. Yay...I plan adding facing to another game (if I ever pull it off). But believe me, that is not a trivial thing and would need a helluva lot rebalancing. If you add directons for a player, you should also add them to monsters. And I can't imagine how can it be displayed in ASCII.

Quoting: STL- I believe quick weapon switching keys should equip the weapon of the type that has most ammunition inside. ... (Also I should be able to switch from a weapon to same weapon if the one I have in my hands has less ammunition than the one in my inventory.) Agree. Also there is some things to be fixed, as being able to use 3 to select a double shortgun, when you don't have an ordinary one.

Quoting: STL10- How about weapon modifications that you can carry, and apply to a weapon? And maybe more than one... Rapid fastload advanced bfg... hell yea. I'm afraid it may devalue such items, as you will be guranteed to have a muliple-enhanced BFG in every game.

Quoting: Kornel KisielewiczP.S. I fixed the "quote" button. I hope... :PAt last! :P

Kornel Kisielewicz:
Quoting: AertonIf you add directons for a player, you should also add them to monsters. And I can't imagine how can it be displayed in ASCII.
If AlienBreedRL ever comes out you'll see what I mean ;-]

STL:
Quoting: Kornel KisielewiczQuoting: STL
- I'd like to have an easy way to switch the item laying on the ground with an item in the inventory, or even something you are wearing.
How do you imagine that "interface-wise"?

Let me explain. There needs to be another key, say "s" (for switch) for arguments sake. When I hit "s" I see the regular inventory window, except that the title says: "Replace <the thing on the ground> with...".

For items in use, when I hit "e", and regular view show up.. when I hit the corresponding key of armor/weapon/boot, I see "Choose Item" window. Items include compatible things in my inventory, "None", and the item on the ground if that's compatible. Only problem I can forsee is the space.. and that can be eliminated in many ways...

Quoting: Aerton
Quoting: STL
10- How about weapon modifications that you can carry, and apply to a weapon? And maybe more than one... Rapid fastload advanced bfg... hell yea.
I'm afraid it may devalue such items, as you will be guranteed to have a muliple-enhanced BFG in every game.

Actually, it adds a little twist. Since real weapon powers are not obvious to figure out. Plus, they do not have to be applicable to every weapon. Or they can be like "Pistol Fastload Upgrade" that are applicable to a specific weapon. Where low end weapon upgrades are common, high end weapon upgrades can be really scarce. If upgrades are specific to weapon, then it allow to have "Pistol Fastload Upgrade MKII"... the possibilities are endless.
 
Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
Quoting: STL
How about "advanced phase device", where you can choose where to go (or do you have that already I never get past lvl 14 yet)?
LoL, that would make two places WAY to easy :>

Quoting: STL
14- The Wall and locked rooms. I believe these suck. There should be a way to get these open without explosives, since there is no guarantee, the player can have explosives (=rocket) at that time. Locked doos can have keys placed in the level.
That's the whole point -- sometimes you can, sometimes you can't :). The main secret of the game also depends on ridiculous luck :D.


Well said, that't the point. Your being successful on the game does depend on ridiculous luck more than knowledge and skill (to think, to calculate ahead). I admit roguelikes really demand luck, but I think this is excessive. From my experience with game desing, if a game requires quite a deal of luck, then people do not prefer to play it against computer.

Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
Quoting: STL
Actually 14 gave me an idea, how about c-4 that you can carry around, and deploy (like thermie but much much much smaller blast , say somewhat like barrels?).
I don't see any use for it except for blowing up walls in special levels.

Traps. Well placed time traps. (you can actually kill monsters with this while you are too busy dodging plasma gun shots from A's...)

For move&shoot thing: No matter how much you calculate, you cannot do this. Closest you can do is move around until the enemy is in "wait"  turn, and shoot once, and move again. I believe this is called dancing... also it depends on the speed of the monster and your walking&shooting speed. In doom 1/2 you can kill anything in one-on-one except former humans and archvile if you are in an open space and have only pistol with unlimited ammunition even if you start with 1 health. For slower projectiles, I can see how this messes up with the text UI. For game being easy, let me ask you a question: How many times in total, did you see any monster alone (save bosses) in an open space that you can easily dodge around, please take into account all episodes of doom 1 and 2. For Cyberdemon, if you'd think that would be too easy, i'd modify his behavior so that, he fires 3 missiles at a time in a spread fashion.

Here is a middle ground. Instead of having slow projectiles and shoot&move action, you can implement "Getting Ready to fire" for (at least most of the) monsters. Like:
I see an imp, in a corridor...
..........i.........
Then it readies to fire...
..........i.........
If I notice that, I may choose to forfeit my firing to dodge the projectile.
the imp fires to the location where I was at the point of "ready to fire". It can also choose to fire a location I can dodge, without knowledge of my dodge movement (Improved AI.. there you go).
If you didn't notice the i is bold when it's getting ready to fire.

Two more ideas:

1- Actually, I'd say the IU is messed up too much even with instant hit projectiles. The thing is, I see nothing for unexplored, I see dots for explored and not currently visible spaces and dots (again!) for currently in sight spaces. Gray and white are not really distinguishable on most computers, or to most eyes. I'd do that as:
Complete gray (background color) for not explored, Dark gray background and maybe gray dots for explored and not visible (plus as usual, everything is grayed out), and black background with no dots  for currently in sight. This would make things crystal clear.

2- Named monsters and items (maybe dropped by named monsters). It sounds like diablo more than doom, but yet, it can be interesting. E.g. a gray h on yellow background, named "Sarge", and has twice (triple?) the stats of normal gray h, and drops "Mother Gun", which is a special unique pistol (either too powerful (faster-load, 10 clip size and 3d5 dmg) or something that is more balanced (slower reload, 12 clipsize, 3d3 dmg))...

3- (ok I may not know how to count) Grenades...(instead of c-4) Difference from rockets is: a) they might be an inventory item as opposed to reguar equippable weapon, b) they do not explode on contact unless they land on lava or acid, c) they can go as far as your visible range

Kornel Kisielewicz:
Quoting: STLFor items in use, when I hit "e", and regular view show up.. when I hit the corresponding key of armor/weapon/boot, I see "Choose Item" window. Items include compatible things in my inventory, "None", and the item on the ground if that's compatible. Only problem I can forsee is the space.. and that can be eliminated in many ways...
Unfortunately that would clutter up the inventory space. I have an idea of an "intelligent pickup" but that is low priority.

Quoting: STLI admit roguelikes really demand luck, but I think this is excessive. From my experience with game desing, if a game requires quite a deal of luck, then people do not prefer to play it against computer.
I play around with the idea of making persistent levels (with the possibility of going back) -- that would make it a lot less random.

Quoting: STLIn doom 1/2 you can kill anything in one-on-one except former humans and archvile if you are in an open space and have only pistol with unlimited ammunition even if you start with 1 health.
Cybie and Spider included? :-P

Quoting: STLHere is a middle ground. Instead of having slow projectiles and shoot&move action, you can implement "Getting Ready to fire" for (at least most of the) monsters.
This is a lot more "implementable". And I may consider it. Unfortuately with the current speed system it's impossible to say wether the enemy WILL manage to make a shot on the next turn. BTW, there's no Bold in the ASCII standard :/.

Quoting: STLGray and white are not really distinguishable on most computers, or to most eyes. I'd do that as:
Complete gray (background color) for not explored, Dark gray background and maybe gray dots for explored and not visible (plus as usual, everything is grayed out), and black background with no dots for currently in sight.
The problem lies in standard WinXP console color set. I might use a hack for that in the future. The solution you presented would look ugly IMHO, but maybe I'll add it as an option for those less artisticaly inclined ;-].

Quoting: STL2- Named monsters and items (maybe dropped by named monsters). It sounds like diablo more than doom, but yet, it can be interesting. E.g. a gray h on yellow background, named "Sarge", and has twice (triple?) the stats of normal gray h, and drops "Mother Gun", which is a special unique pistol (either too powerful (faster-load, 10 clip size and 3d5 dmg) or something that is more balanced (slower reload, 12 clipsize, 3d3 dmg))...
This pushes DoomRL into the RPG side of things. I would want to do that, but I'm afraid it might ruin the game :-/

Quoting: STL3- (ok I may not know how to count) Grenades...(instead of c-4) Difference from rockets is: a) they might be an inventory item as opposed to reguar equippable weapon, b) they do not explode on contact unless they land on lava or acid, c) they can go as far as your visible range
Grenades were discussed, and a general consensus has been made, that they are undoomish. I agree with that opinion.

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