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Author Topic: How to make agility mods useful for shotguns  (Read 9233 times)

leonresevil2

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How to make agility mods useful for shotguns
« on: February 28, 2010, 18:19 »

I have been thinking, what does the agility mod really do for weapons? Of course, it increases accuracy. Meaning, it increases the chance that each bullet fired will hit. The issue is, shotguns always hit within their shot patterns. So, the agility mod is currently useless to shotguns.
However let's look at this a little bit differently, not basing the numbers off of DoomRL, but just a representation of concept. Say you fire 10 chaingun bullets, and 5 hit, 5 miss, on average. You apply an agility mod, and now your average is 6 hit, 4 miss. Another mod, and it becomes 7-3. Now, let's say that a shotgun fires 100 bits of shrapnel in each fire. Estimate for sake of simplicity that the shotgun has a 100 degree blast angle, therefore 10 shrapnel go each 10 degrees. So, an enemy up close is likely to be hit from most or all shrapnel, and an enemy far away is likely to be hit with 10 or less shrapnel. Let's say an enemy is far enough away that 10 shrapnel approach him, and only 5 hit. My thought is, apply the agility mod, and now 6 or seven shrapnel hit. Of course, at closer distances, more shrapnel will hit each time.
The idea is almost like auto-targeting bullet shrapnel, but the idea can be implemented in a few ways. I will attempt to demonstrate how I can see the implementations, represented by an image with the character, shooting a shotgun, and numbers representing the "relative" damage, not accurate to the game, but damage to an enemy in that square compared to damage at other squares.

The normal estimate damage map:
Code: [Select]
...1......
.4321.....
@54321....
.4321.....
...1......

Implementation 1, concentrating (auto-targeting) shrapnel in mods 1-3:
Code: [Select]
...2......          ...3......          ...4......
.5432.....          .6543.....          .7654.....
@65432....          @76543....          @87654....
.5432.....          .6543.....          .7654.....
...2......          ...3......          ...4......

Implementation 2, extending blast radius in mods 1-3:
Code: [Select]
...11.....          ...111....          ...1111...
.43211....          .432111...          .4321111..
@543211...          @5432111..          @54321111.
.43211....          .432111...          .4321111..
...11.....          ...111....          ...1111...

Implementation 3, slowing dropoff in mods 1-3:
Code: [Select]
...21.....          ...221....          ...3221...
.43321....          .443321...          .4433221..
@543321...          @5544321..          @55443321.
.43321....          .443321...          .4433221..
...21.....          ...221....          ...3221...

Basically, Im. 1 is similar to (I assume) the effects of a power mod, but would keep shotguns as close-range weapons. Im. 2 makes shotguns the perfect scouting weapons, as enemies from longer distances can be hit for sure, but will only receive minimum damage at any ranges outside of the existing shotgun ranges. Im. 3 slows down the damage drop-off, making the shotgun better at close and medium ranges, plus still great for scouting (probably better than Im 2 since the damage at long range is likely to be slightly larger.), but possibly over-powered and unbalancing for the game.

Please vote on which implementation you feel would be better for the game, or make your own suggestions and recommendations. Remember, these numbers and images are not based on the game damage rates, but simply to get the ideas across in visual form. Thank you for reading, and I hope you appreciate the effort put in to the post.

EDIT: I personally am not going to vote, as I would like to hear the thoughts and ideas from the community here, the more expert players, and Kornel, as he knows what the mods are supposed to do. The goal here is to create an improvement to shotguns by utilizing an existing mod option, and making the mod effective a way that is balanced yet useful for shotgun users. I am a shotgun user, but I want to hear what you all think.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 21:04 by leonresevil2 »
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ChaoticJosh

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Re: How to make agility mods useful for shotguns
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2010, 16:16 »

Alright, who voted and didn't offer imput? I think option two would be preferable, as it would add more usefulness to the double shotty, because at this point in time I rarely use it due to the frustratingly short range.

Now, I'm not suggesting that a single agility mod make the double shotty into substitute Jackhammer, but adding one more tile of range won't hurt, and it makes advanced shottys more valuable.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 17:49 by ChaoticJosh »
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leonresevil2

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Re: How to make agility mods useful for shotguns
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2010, 21:01 »

Agreed, the effects of the mods would have to be balanced in order to prevent over-powered shotguns. Most shotguns have a lot of theoretical damage potential, but they tend to lose that awesomeness and 'kick' in the later game, combined with the thinning amounts of shotgun ammo in the late game. MAD helps to balance out the weakness of shrapnel damage, but that shotgun Master build still has some weaknesses in range, ammo, weapon variety, move speed, etc. I am hoping to see one of the key elements of the game (agility mods) become useful for one of the character build options in the game (shotgunner). A shotgun build shouldn't be OP compared to the other build options, but should stand comparable. So, the implementations I have listed would need to be balanced in code effects and such, to add effects from the agility mod(s) without making a shotgun build the best option. As it is, MAc is one of the easiest builds to win with, if you play safe and take advantage of the game elements. In short, I want it to be balanced, which is why I am not taking a side in voting or anything, I just want to see agility mods implemented for shotguns in a 'proper' way.

On that note, I have still not voted, I am unsure which method would work, and I am still thinking about it. In fact, a friend of mine (who has not played the game [yet]) suggested that, in his mind, increasing accuracy for a shotgun could either make the blast range thinner yet more concentrated and powerful (and possibly longer), or increase the spread width (I think that's how I understood him). I could draw up these ideas if anyone is interested in them, and I can change the voting options (and you can still re-vote I believe). The voting options are limited to 5, AFAIK, which makes additional options hard to add (I would maybe remove "Other").
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UnderAPaleGreySky

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Re: How to make agility mods useful for shotguns
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2010, 22:59 »

[...]but that shotgun Master build still has some weaknesses in range, ammo, weapon variety, move speed, etc.
Maybe so, but can any other Master build clear an entire room full of enemies with only a very little amount of ammo spent?
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Frankosity

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Re: How to make agility mods useful for shotguns
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2010, 11:21 »

Yeah. Ammochain.
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Tavana

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Re: How to make agility mods useful for shotguns
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2010, 13:26 »

Just saw a mention of advanced weapons (they still exist? o.O) and wanted to remind you that one this release canidate is tested, they wont be around to play with anymore. On the plus side, a wide range of exotics will accept one mod.
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leonresevil2

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Re: How to make agility mods useful for shotguns
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2010, 18:04 »

Just saw a mention of advanced weapons (they still exist? o.O) and wanted to remind you that one this release canidate is tested, they wont be around to play with anymore. On the plus side, a wide range of exotics will accept one mod.

Wait. Advanced weapons are gone? Any particular reason? I thought I heard something about this awhile back, but I didn't take it seriously. I never saw anything posted, or any talk about the pros and cons of removing advanced weapons. Advanced weapons and modding were probably my favorite parts of the game. Will Whizkid be removed too?
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Madtrixr

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Re: How to make agility mods useful for shotguns
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2010, 18:12 »

Wait. Advanced weapons are gone? Any particular reason? I thought I heard something about this awhile back, but I didn't take it seriously. I never saw anything posted, or any talk about the pros and cons of removing advanced weapons. Advanced weapons and modding were probably my favorite parts of the game. Will Whizkid be removed too?

Yes...In 0.9.9.1, Adv weapons, and the Adv tech pack no longer exsist. And no, whiz kid will not be removed, in fact, it's getting either a buff or a nerf, I forget which.
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leonresevil2

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Re: How to make agility mods useful for shotguns
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2010, 18:29 »

Hmm. Well, whizkid can't be nerfed much more as it is, with advanced weapons being removed. Will the focus of the game be moving towards more Uniques and Exotics to choose from? Without the ability to modify weapons extensively to the player's needs... I'm slightly depressed to hear that removal.
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ChaoticJosh

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Re: How to make agility mods useful for shotguns
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2010, 18:38 »

Maybe, in some weird way that I can't really guess at the moment, that modding will actually be more useful than it is now? I can only guess what might be going on in Kornel's mind.
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leonresevil2

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Re: How to make agility mods useful for shotguns
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2010, 18:43 »

Maybe, in some weird way that I can't really guess at the moment, that modding will actually be more useful than it is now? I can only guess what might be going on in Kornel's mind.
Maybe it will be better. I will try the public release when it arrives, but I am slightly disappointed that this change occurred without (public) notification or anything to see what users thought. I will try the new version, as I said, and I may have to put up a bounty eventually to get advanced weapons back (if I really want to see them back, depending on how the change goes).
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thelaptop

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Re: How to make agility mods useful for shotguns
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2010, 20:04 »

Maybe it will be better. I will try the public release when it arrives, but I am slightly disappointed that this change occurred without (public) notification or anything to see what users thought. I will try the new version, as I said, and I may have to put up a bounty eventually to get advanced weapons back (if I really want to see them back, depending on how the change goes).

If it means that much to you, you should be one of the beta testers and get yourself heard.

The decision to drop Advanced weapons was not one made on a whim.
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UnderAPaleGreySky

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Re: How to make agility mods useful for shotguns
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2010, 21:44 »

Yeah. Ammochain.
Maybe so, but that leaves you completely open to retaliation after each volley. Unlike a shotgun build.
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Thomas

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Re: How to make agility mods useful for shotguns
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2010, 21:59 »

Yes...In 0.9.9.1, Adv weapons, and the Adv tech pack no longer exsist. And no, whiz kid will not be removed, in fact, it's getting either a buff or a nerf, I forget which.

Twas buffed to "Any moddable weapon gains 2 mod slots, armours gain 1 mod slot".

Without the ability to modify weapons extensively to the player's needs... I'm slightly depressed to hear that removal.

Sure you can, only now you just need to be level 4 instead of obscenely lucky.

Maybe so, but that leaves you completely open to retaliation after each volley. Unlike a shotgun build.

You're still open to retaliation, but you've got TaN 2 and you're probably running, so you'd take less damage.

As for the actual topic at hand, agility mods could reduce the spread factor by 10% per mod and increase maxrange by 1.
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UnderAPaleGreySky

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Re: How to make agility mods useful for shotguns
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2010, 22:18 »

You're still open to retaliation, but you've got TaN 2 and you're probably running, so you'd take less damage.
But not as much. If you're doing it right, you'd be corner-shooting the bastards.
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