DRL > Discussion
Ruminating about MAc balance and Game Balance in general...
Madtrixr:
--- Code: ---[2010-04-10 14:51:29] <Madtrixr> So...
[2010-04-10 14:51:32] * Madtrixr decides to stir up discussion.
[2010-04-10 14:51:36] <Madtrixr> Ammochain: How fix it?
[2010-04-10 14:51:42] <Gargulec> Don't/
[2010-04-10 14:51:48] <Madtrixr> ...
[2010-04-10 14:52:08] <DaveC> More important is Berserker.
[2010-04-10 14:52:10] <Gargulec> Why? Cause any fixing would probably make it totally not worth it.
[2010-04-10 14:52:49] <Gargulec> Only one I can partially agree is Thomas one that guns still need reloading, and ammochain generates ammo only after there is no left in inv
[2010-04-10 14:53:21] * Madtrixr still likes no reloading but takes ammo from backpack
[2010-04-10 14:53:30] <Gargulec> To weak.
[2010-04-10 14:53:35] <Gargulec> Too*
[2010-04-10 14:53:37] <Madtrixr> One whole chain.
[2010-04-10 14:53:44] <Gargulec> I would not take it...
[2010-04-10 14:53:57] <Gargulec> Build would just not be worth it, Cat is better anyday
[2010-04-10 14:54:16] <Madtrixr> But it's borken right now.
[2010-04-10 14:54:22] * DaveC doesn't really use rapid-fire builds
[2010-04-10 14:54:23] <Madtrixr> I can have NO ammo.
[2010-04-10 14:54:28] <Madtrixr> in my gun or pack.
[2010-04-10 14:54:32] <Madtrixr> and still fire.
[2010-04-10 14:54:50] <Madtrixr> *borked. damn it, that typo will work for me.
[2010-04-10 14:55:15] <Gargulec> And with Mad you do not even care whether an enemy is wearing no armor or full body ultra mega duper suit of phlebotium
[2010-04-10 14:55:23] <Gargulec> With shotguns.
[2010-04-10 14:55:31] <Madtrixr> Right,.
[2010-04-10 14:55:32] <Madtrixr> I know.
[2010-04-10 14:55:53] <Madtrixr> Even though I die halfway to MAD...
[2010-04-10 14:55:59] <Madtrixr> Half of the time,.
[2010-04-10 14:56:21] <Gargulec> And 99% of my AoB runs end on dlevel 2
[2010-04-10 14:57:30] <Gargulec> So what? Ammochain is tad broken, but sadly there is no good way to fix it.
[2010-04-10 14:57:54] <Gargulec> Cateye was DISABLED due to being overpowered, and now it is scarcely used.
[2010-04-10 14:58:15] <Gargulec> Should Ammochain lose it's paw, everyone would switch to Cat, and MAc would not be used.
[2010-04-10 14:58:31] * Madtrixr sighs...
[2010-04-10 14:58:37] <Madtrixr> Some people...
[2010-04-10 14:58:47] <Gargulec> ?
[2010-04-10 14:59:07] <Madtrixr> Well, cause you're right.
[2010-04-10 14:59:23] <Madtrixr> A mojority of the people want to win, so they go ammo chain; now.
[2010-04-10 14:59:39] <Madtrixr> if it was nerfed, they would all switch to cateye.
[2010-04-10 14:59:46] <Madtrixr> then something else...
[2010-04-10 15:00:01] * Madtrixr just sticks with Shotguns.
[2010-04-10 15:00:04] <Gargulec> There is one sure way to solve it- buff all other master traits... AND then add some nasty, nasty things that make game harder.
[2010-04-10 15:00:26] <Gargulec> So all master traits are more or less on par with Ammochain, but game itself gets much harder.
[2010-04-10 15:01:06] <Gargulec> This would, sadly, totally remove non master traited runs, but this is an unavoidable, sadly.
[2010-04-10 15:01:37] <Madtrixr> I'm always shooting for master traits, TBH.
[2010-04-10 15:01:46] * Gargulec as well
[2010-04-10 15:01:50] <Gargulec> Apart from AoMr
[2010-04-10 15:01:51] <Madtrixr> The one time I didn't was when I was looking for the DS...
[2010-04-10 15:02:18] <Gargulec> Where I go SoG-SoG-DG-SoG-Fin-Fin-WK-SoB-Sob-SoB
[2010-04-10 15:02:32] <Gargulec> This is just more fun that wa
[2010-04-10 15:02:34] <Gargulec> y
[2010-04-10 15:03:21] <Gargulec> And removing Ammochain would simply annoy people.
[2010-04-10 15:03:26] <Madtrixr> Yeah.
[2010-04-10 15:03:39] <Madtrixr> He would never hear the end of it if Ac was removed...
[2010-04-10 15:03:47] <Gargulec> And, truth be told, IIRC, rapid fire builds were always the strongest ones.
[2010-04-10 15:04:08] <Gargulec> First Intuition being broken, then Cateye, now MAc...
[2010-04-10 15:04:53] <Gargulec> The problem appears to be much deeper than just MAc... It is rapid fire being overpowered.
[2010-04-10 15:05:30] <Madtrixr> hmm
[2010-04-10 15:05:39] <Gargulec> And I am against nerfs per se, I'd rather see game getting harder and other traits getting stronger
[2010-04-10 15:05:57] <Madtrixr> That i could get behind
[2010-04-10 15:06:03] <Gargulec> Nerfs tend to cause rage, while buffs do bring rejoice
[2010-04-10 15:06:08] <Madtrixr> Yeah.
[2010-04-10 15:06:18] * Madtrixr remembers the famous WoW thing
[2010-04-10 15:06:48] <Gargulec> So, what I'd suggest, as I said, every master trait gets a massive boost, MAc is left as it is and game is made harder
[2010-04-10 15:07:11] <Madtrixr> That would do it, but how to power up the other Master traits...
[2010-04-10 15:07:36] <Gargulec> Okay... Cat- sight radius +2, autohit with missile weapons
[2010-04-10 15:07:51] <Gargulec> For example.
[2010-04-10 15:07:54] <DaveC> Blademaster?
[2010-04-10 15:08:24] <Madtrixr> MAD: Increased Knockback, extra damage to non armor?
[2010-04-10 15:08:32] <Gargulec> You automatically melee everything in range.
[2010-04-10 15:09:12] <Gargulec> Or better yet, automatic free action AFTER any melee hit
[2010-04-10 15:09:33] <Gargulec> MAD: Vastly decreased shotgun damage dropoff
[2010-04-10 15:09:53] <Madtrixr> Oh, yeah, that would work.
[2010-04-10 15:10:28] <Gargulec> Fireangle- all weapons now deal fire damage
[2010-04-10 15:11:28] <Madtrixr> MGK...
[2010-04-10 15:11:36] <Gargulec> GK- free shot after dodge, apart from that, no idea
[2010-04-10 15:11:49] * DaveC will be back later
[2010-04-10 15:11:50] *** DaveC changed nick to DaveC|away
[2010-04-10 15:11:50] <Gargulec> Truth be told, pistol builds would still be fine with that
[2010-04-10 15:12:16] <Gargulec> Vampyre- no changes. Power of that build is impressive enough
[2010-04-10 15:12:32] <Madtrixr> 2 shots for the Price of 1, but that might be hard to do, and almost too over powered...
[2010-04-10 15:12:47] <Gargulec> And now about making the game harder...
[2010-04-10 15:13:25] * Gargulec hopes that Mad will gather those thoughts and post them. He himself is not feeling like posting today.
[2010-04-10 15:13:54] <Madtrixr> *sigh*...Oh alright...
[2010-04-10 15:13:54] <ParaSaitLaptop> loooooooool http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBWAv8zFLL4
[2010-04-10 15:13:58] <ParaSaitLaptop> Can't stop loling :D
[2010-04-10 15:14:47] <Gargulec> The game, the game...
[2010-04-10 15:14:57] <Gargulec> All that comes into my mind are new monsters
[2010-04-10 15:15:16] * Gargulec thinks that powered up versions of monsters already would do.
[2010-04-10 15:16:02] <Gargulec> Like hellish revenants, firing at 2x the speed of normal ones.
[2010-04-10 15:16:33] <Gargulec> Or arachs that fire burst 1.4x longer
[2010-04-10 15:16:59] <Gargulec> Or old cacos... those with attack better than HK's, better Acc and bigger splash
[2010-04-10 15:21:27] <Gargulec> ??
[2010-04-10 15:22:16] <Madtrixr> Whut? It's good.
[2010-04-10 15:22:18] <Madtrixr> I like.
[2010-04-10 15:22:48] <Gargulec> Then go to posting. I real want to see it said by somebody who operates english with ease
[2010-04-10 15:22:53] <Gargulec> Please.
[2010-04-10 15:23:14] <Madtrixr> Oy...FINE.
[2010-04-10 15:23:23] <Gargulec> Sorry for being rude etc., but I am feeling angry today, sorry
[2010-04-10 15:30:20] <Madtrixr> G: What should I post exactly?
[2010-04-10 15:30:48] <Gargulec> The argument. Mine, your opinion on it and suggested solutions, by both of us, I think
[2010-04-10 15:31:13] * Madtrixr will probably logdump.
[2010-04-10 15:31:20] <Gargulec> Yhm.
[2010-04-10 15:31:28] <Madtrixr> That fine?
[2010-04-10 15:31:33] <Gargulec> Yeah
[2010-04-10 15:31:37] <Madtrixr> K.
--- End code ---
This is a conversation Me and Gargulec had on IRC earlier. I put this here to hopefully stimulate some discussion about how to go about balancing the game better, in our (differing) opinions.
I did this cause G's lazy :P.
ChaoticJosh:
I'm gonna have to ask Garg to come here personally and recite what his stance on the issue is again, as I think it'd be rude to just take your word for it.
I'll just quote what I said in a very similar thread which is occurring as of this moment, regarding my stance on the issue:
--- Quote from: ChaoticJosh on April 08, 2010, 17:37 ---I think it's a universal agreement that ammochain is overpowered....
It's simple, simply require that automatic weapons require no reloading. What I mean: instead of having to reload, ammochain simply does what it's name implies, that is it "chains" your ammo together. So, put simply, when your gun hits zero ammo, it doesn't need to be reloaded, it'll simply start shooting ammo straight from your inventory. This would help it retain value as a master trait, and would improve the lasting power of the chainfire ability. You wouldn't need to worry about the long reloading times of chainguns or plasma rifles, but you'd have to especially conscious of how much ammo you might be blasting recklessly. Also, it wouldn't negate the ammo collecting or conservation aspects, and you'd still need to reload after the battle's over in order to conserve inventory space. I think that would make it excellently balanced.
Now, I can't take credit for this idea, as I remember hearing about it in a similar discussion. I just can't remember who said it or where. It deserves mentioning though.
--- End quote ---
So in other words, I'm in agreement with you Trixr. There seems to be some disagreement regarding the actual usefulness of this, that this change would make it not worth it, but I've yet to hear an even semi-plausible reason of why this nerf would be too much. To me, it seems just perfect.
Gargulec:
Because this is weaker than current Cateye. And since the way to Ammochain is paved with not-so-useful-rapid-fire-traits, people would stop using Ammochain in favour of Cateye, which, at one point was taken off the game due to being overpowered, and it has much better requirements than Ammochain.
ChaoticJosh:
So wait, you tolerate the overpowered Mac because then people would just hop over to the overpowered cateye? How is having two overpowered abilities better than having one?
Though, for the sake of accuracy in this discussion, since I've only ever played around with catye like once, can you elaborate on what cateye does that makes it overpowered and would inspire this very meta argument of yours?
Gargulec:
--- Quote from: ChaoticJosh on April 10, 2010, 17:53 ---So wait, you tolerate the overpowered Mac because then people would just hop over to the overpowered cateye? How is having two overpowered abilities better than having one?
Though, for the sake of accuracy in this discussion, since I've only ever played around with catye like once, can you elaborate on what cateye does that makes it overpowered and would inspire this very meta argument of yours?
--- End quote ---
Why two overpowered traits of the same build are better than one overpowered? Since if only one is overpowered, the second becomes unnecessary, since nobody use it. So why it is in game, even? And if two are overpowered, both are equally useful. You also seem to ignore the part of my idea about making every other master trait on par with Ammochain, and then making the late game much more difficult to balance things out.
Cateye usefulness comes from two things: It allows you snipe enemies from outside their LOS, thus killing them without even being attacked. Second is the thing that due to enemies AI, they do not react properly to begin shot from outside LOS, making them easy targets.
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