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Ruminating about MAc balance and Game Balance in general...

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ChaoticJosh:
I don't know, this seems to run on flawed assumptions. This is assuming that everyone ranks these traits similiarly, and that everyone has the same playstyle to accommodate this. In my opinion, Cateye doesn't seem useful enough to warrant the level of caution you're treating it with. Yeah, it increases LOS, and allows sniping, but that's it, and it blocks TaN (a very useful trait), and it doesn't seem to be even half as gamebreaking as Mac is. So I'm thinking that saying everyone will jump over to it seems exaggerated.

I didn't mention the 'make everything else more powerful to be on par with Ammochain' idea was because it seems like a bloated and unnecessary suggestion. It'd be much easier to nerf ammochain, see how the community's strategies develop, and then make any changes if further problems develop rather than attempting to preemptively anticipate and fix meta problems.

And even if you're right, and cateye is as powerful as you claim it to be, couldn't you level that out by modifying monster AI to respond better to being shot at?

BEEF:

--- Quote from: Gargulec on April 10, 2010, 18:03 ---Cateye usefulness comes from two things: It allows you snipe enemies from outside their LOS, thus killing them without even being attacked. Second is the thing that due to enemies AI, they do not react properly to begin shot from outside LOS, making them easy targets.

--- End quote ---
For what it's worth, I like to play Cateye a lot and monsters seem to react just fine to being hit from out of LOS, and they even seem to start heading towards you when they enter your LOS without being shot at. So its main advantage is that you get extra shots while they approach you, not that you get unlimited extra shots at them. That's what inuition 2 is for.

Intuition 2 is probably more broken than Cateye. Knowing exactly where every enemy is lets you shoot into the dark until everybody is dead, and if anybody gets upset you can just run away until they get bored. At least with Cateye you generally have to get close enough that there's a danger of them noticing you and getting close enough to shoot at you.

My quick fix for intuition 2: Have it only show the general locations of monsters, sticking their dots randomly in a 3x3 (or 5x5) square centered on the monster. You'll still know what corners have monsters lurking behind them, but you can't reliably snipe them to death without having a really good idea of where they are already. Alternately or additionally, it can fail for weaker monsters; your spidey sense doesn't tingle for imps when it's being throttled by arachnotrons.


As for Ammochain, my big complaint is that it's boring. You're running around with a plasma rifle 95% of the time because there's no reason to use anything else, and that "bloink!" sound gets irritating pretty fast.

Fanta Hege:
To be honest, making everything else as powerful as Ammochain and then buffing up the rest of the game doesn't seem that much of fun. =/

If you ask me, Ammochain should receive nerf of a type that would effect the traits it blocks.
Now tell me, does soag really hurt you that much about beeing blocked? No? Great! lets change it to hellrunner or ironman and bam! You lose even more defense. Now only problem might be finding grammaton cleric beretta and using it with ammochain but still...

Ammochain is somewhat OP right now, but you really don't need that drastic measures for it.

Also even though I've been an ammochain fan in the past, the latest fast monsters buff has made imps sucha a gigantic pain in the ass in N! I nowdays use Fireangel due of the reloader and shotguns going so well hand to hand and soab or fin just doesn't cut the cake in early game anymore to provide enough damage input against them.


Int 2 could use some fixing aswell, but considering if you do not have a rocket launcher and don't know where the wall and items are.. You're just basicly hurting yourself with the paranoia when using it.

Cateye is okay as it is right now due of the regruitments and the trait blockings.

Also about those imps I mentioned earlier and N!? Imps could really do with an accuracy reduction of 1 or 2, seriously, they seem to snipe and hit no matter how much I try dodge and with the fast monster buff, they are basicly now worse then caco's and hellknights IMO with that darn fast rate of fire and the masses they appear in. N! could also look into the resurrection rate a bit more, I swear it has fastened up in this version..

Melon:
Leave the ammochain as it is now. You cannot use Eagle Eye, to before you actually hit a monster, a lot of bullets will just hit the wall. You have to find accuracy mods and use hide and shoot tactics. It block TaN, so this is auto-kill when you meet arachnotrons or former commandos.

Leave it be!

Game Hunter:
Rapid-fire builds, sans Ammochain, are only viable because of one key trait: Son of a Bitch.  Having the extra damage negates problems against armor, kills things in general faster, and conserves your ammo when you can kill in one round instead of two (or two instead of three, more often than not).  Ammochain, technically, does not NEED this trait, for two reasons:

- No worries about ammo
- Plasma cuts through armor like no tomorrow

Perhaps changing the requirements of Ammochain will nerf it enough without doing too much damage.  Specifically, I was thinking something like WK (1), SoaB (1), Rel (2).  This forces a couple of points into something that, in most cases, won't even be considered during a rapid-fire run: however, it STILL has uses for explosive weapons, not to mention it "makes sense" that you'd have to learn how to reload to be able to chain ammo like that (it's not like we're saying the ammo comes from thin air after all).  Naturally there are plenty of different possibilities here, and I'm here we could figure out something good.  Unfortunately, it's hard to argue against the current requirements, especially with the blocked EE trait.

While I do like the idea of MAc turning all your stacks into a single bunch, this would throw away any usefulness in obtaining the Backpack.  This isn't so much bad as it is unprecedented: traits narrow your options and what you want to get but never obsolete equipment entirely.  And when you consider that (again, looking over MAc) rapid-fire builds basically depend on having as much ammo as possible, the Backpack is one of those things you plan on...removing the strategy of preparation for The Wall would diminish some enjoyment.

Alternatively, Ammochain could just instantly reload your rapid-fire gun whenever it runs out of ammo ala Madtrixr.  This really isn't all that bad, either: you still have to carry ammo but you never have to worry if the clip runs out (compounded that you never had to put a point into Reloader!).  However, the problem with THIS change comes from the inherent (albeit weak) balancing that Melon brought up: no EE.  The biggest flaw in a rapid-fire weapon lies in the inability to hit anything past a couple tiles.  Without modding, the only reason Ammochain is even viable is BECAUSE you never run out of ammo...you'll barely hit anything with that infinite chain going.  What tends to break the MAc build, ultimately, is achieving A2 on your weapon of choice, upping the chance to hit to that of a pistol...easily enough to hit most of the time, which begs the question why you need infinite ammo anymore.

Maybe what we should fix, then, is the A2 that is easily attainable with explosives (or careful strategy) in the Chained Court, which is 1) always generated and, 2) rather early in the game.  (The exception, A100, sees so many mods that it doesn't matter all that much anyway.)  Possibilities:

- Randomize the mod type.  Quick fix, probably no changes in balancing other than the aforementioned issue, still worth checking out (what I wouldn't give for some early power mods in a shotty run).
- Only one mod is an agility type.  This still provides the much-desired agility on boots for other games, and A1 isn't QUITE enough to be game-breaking.  You'll have to wait until at least Armory (if it even shows up) to attain that glorious pistol accuracy.  The other mod can be whatever, but I'd suggest tech (if only because it's the only mod not guaranteed in some special level).
- Replace the mods altogether with other equipment.  Maybe put an early plasma rifle in there, or some protective boots, or red armor, or even with the small chance of an exotic piece.  It's less favorable to MAc and more favorable to any build at all, which is certainly part of the purpose of special levels (I'm looking at you, four Berserk Packs and Chainsaw).

Anyway, plenty of options to think about.  I would dispute strongly that rebalancing the entire game for the sake of a single POSSIBLE build is overdoing things, and Kornel (I'm sure) is looking for something a lot easier to implement.

Cateye is a great build, too, although it does tend to pare in comparison to an A2 Ammochain run.  It has the benefit of stacking with Int (2), although a lot would argue that these are redundant and would happily choose the one that doesn't block TaN.  The practicality of MCe lies in long-distance shooting (EE tends to be useless after a single point) which, due to the dimensions of the game, doesn't really come up all that often.  A lot of levels throw you into a herd of nasty monsters, or a cave, or an arena, or a bunch of small rooms, or a maze that lacks big areas.  Cateye just doesn't tend to matter in those situations, ending up rusty by the time it is guaranteed useful (Phobos Arena, MAYBE Mortuary if you're ready).  Ammochain, on the other hand, is useful 100% of the time, and is used 100% of the time (unless, for some reason, you need to pull out an explosive weapon), so there is no rust.

As for the rest...

- MGK really loses its spark on harder difficulties.  More monsters mean more bullets mean less ammo overall.  With SoaB locked out, you WILL run out of bullets unless you start floor diving and, to me, a build that advocates avoiding combat isn't a very persuasive one.  Compare MFa, which still has combat uses (such as fighting up against walls, or Arch-viles, or Revs half of the time) while still being defensive.  Check out the Second Pistol Master Trait topic in Requests for Features on ideas for something more offensive: so long as there is a pistol master that can do something against the ever-increasing hordes, I'm happy.
- I'll be frank: do people really use MBm or MVm outside of AoB?  Is it REALLY necessary to have two master traits for a build that is only used a very small fraction of the time?  Based on the mortems, MVm is much preferred over MBm, so I'd tend to leave that one and just keep Cleaver as the remains of Blademaster.
- MAD is fine.  It MIGHT be overpowered, except Fin and HR are both blocked which tends to prevent freedom of battle options.  You are either going to take advantage of armor-piercing shells and radar-shoot the hell out of everything, or you are going to be in a lot of pain.
- Intuition on the second level is pretty ridiculous, except you are basically paying two points to get it (the first level is marginally useful at best, and only once you have the second level) so I think that one's balanced out.  It also makes you get two EE which is, again, rather overkill on accuracy.

I'll post some ideas for the rest in terms of actual changes later, kinda sleepy right now.

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