DRL > Discussion
Ruminating about MAc balance and Game Balance in general...
Gargulec:
--- Quote from: BEEF on April 10, 2010, 21:32 ---For what it's worth, I like to play Cateye a lot and monsters seem to react just fine to being hit from out of LOS, and they even seem to start heading towards you when they enter your LOS without being shot at. So its main advantage is that you get extra shots while they approach you, not that you get unlimited extra shots at them. That's what inuition 2 is for.
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Hmpf, it may be that KK fixed this LOS issue some time ago. I should have remembered.
--- Quote from: BEEF on April 10, 2010, 21:32 ---As for Ammochain, my big complaint is that it's boring. You're running around with a plasma rifle 95% of the time because there's no reason to use anything else, and that "bloink!" sound gets irritating pretty fast.
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Can't agree on that- I have very fond memories of playing with Ammochain, and it did not appear to be boring
--- Quote from: Fanta Hege on April 11, 2010, 02:11 ---To be honest, making everything else as powerful as Ammochain and then buffing up the rest of the game doesn't seem that much of fun. =/
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Whyso? Acquiring power beyond measure (hey MAc!) is the very essence of fun in game for me. And then being presented with situation that DO require such power to solve could be even more fun.
--- Quote from: Fanta Hege on April 11, 2010, 02:11 ---If you ask me, Ammochain should receive nerf of a type that would effect the traits it blocks.
Now tell me, does soag really hurt you that much about beeing blocked? No? Great! lets change it to hellrunner or ironman and bam! You lose even more defense. Now only problem might be finding grammaton cleric beretta and using it with ammochain but still...
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Now that is more or less reasonable suggestion, though I don't know whether it would be enough.
--- Quote from: Fanta Hege on April 11, 2010, 02:11 ---Ammochain is somewhat OP right now, but you really don't need that drastic measures for it.
Also even though I've been an ammochain fan in the past, the latest fast monsters buff has made imps sucha a gigantic pain in the ass in N! I nowdays use Fireangel due of the reloader and shotguns going so well hand to hand and soab or fin just doesn't cut the cake in early game anymore to provide enough damage input against them.
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Of N!, I wont speak, because I do not have any experience with it. And you're probably right on that subject anyway.
--- Quote from: Game Hunter on April 11, 2010, 03:53 ---Rapid-fire builds, sans Ammochain, are only viable because of one key trait: Son of a Bitch. Having the extra damage negates problems against armor, kills things in general faster, and conserves your ammo when you can kill in one round instead of two (or two instead of three, more often than not). Ammochain, technically, does not NEED this trait, for two reasons:
- No worries about ammo
- Plasma cuts through armor like no tomorrow
Perhaps changing the requirements of Ammochain will nerf it enough without doing too much damage. Specifically, I was thinking something like WK (1), SoaB (1), Rel (2). This forces a couple of points into something that, in most cases, won't even be considered during a rapid-fire run: however, it STILL has uses for explosive weapons, not to mention it "makes sense" that you'd have to learn how to reload to be able to chain ammo like that (it's not like we're saying the ammo comes from thin air after all). Naturally there are plenty of different possibilities here, and I'm here we could figure out something good. Unfortunately, it's hard to argue against the current requirements, especially with the blocked EE trait.
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The problem is that SoaB-less MAc run will not only suffer greatly in early game, but also may not have the necessary stopping power in the deeper dungeons.
According to wiki, average damage from chaingun is 14.5 (3.5*4=14) and from plasma (4*6=24). This is, of course, assuming all shots hit, which is unlikely. Now, how SoB and Tri alter this? Chaingun with SoB2 and Tri1 will deal 22.5 damage on average (3.5*5=17.5+5), and plasma with SoB1 would deal 30 damage (4*6=24). But assuming that all shots hit. Now... The chaingun in cateye EE 2, which makes it +6 in acc, thus giving it chance of hitting of about 80-90%, so it does not reduce the damage greatly, while your MAc plasma with acc+2 will hit 50% of times, reducing the damage by HALF. This is, of course, not counting plasma armor reduction quality and chainfire, but those factors cannot change the outcome.
--- Quote from: Game Hunter on April 11, 2010, 03:53 ---While I do like the idea of MAc turning all your stacks into a single bunch, this would throw away any usefulness in obtaining the Backpack. This isn't so much bad as it is unprecedented: traits narrow your options and what you want to get but never obsolete equipment entirely. And when you consider that (again, looking over MAc) rapid-fire builds basically depend on having as much ammo as possible, the Backpack is one of those things you plan on...removing the strategy of preparation for The Wall would diminish some enjoyment.
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Again, can't agree on that. The Wall is a rather difficult special level, and I do not do it unless I am really armed to the teeth. And backpack is not necessary (useful, yes) in any type of run. So it would not dimnish my enjoyment.
--- Quote from: Game Hunter on April 11, 2010, 03:53 ---Alternatively, Ammochain could just instantly reload your rapid-fire gun whenever it runs out of ammo ala Madtrixr. This really isn't all that bad, either: you still have to carry ammo but you never have to worry if the clip runs out (compounded that you never had to put a point into Reloader!). However, the problem with THIS change comes from the inherent (albeit weak) balancing that Melon brought up: no EE. The biggest flaw in a rapid-fire weapon lies in the inability to hit anything past a couple tiles. Without modding, the only reason Ammochain is even viable is BECAUSE you never run out of ammo...you'll barely hit anything with that infinite chain going. What tends to break the MAc build, ultimately, is achieving A2 on your weapon of choice, upping the chance to hit to that of a pistol...easily enough to hit most of the time, which begs the question why you need infinite ammo anymore.
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More or less agree- this variant of MAc would not be powerful enough to be used.
Game Hunter:
--- Quote from: Gargulec ---The problem is that SoaB-less MAc run will not only suffer greatly in early game, but also may not have the necessary stopping power in the deeper dungeons.
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The problem is quickly resolved after a couple more levels, which will almost certainly be directed toward the remaining SoaBs (and quite likely TH for more shots after). The purpose of this kind of nerf is to dedicate yourself more to the Ammochain, which is done by adding superfluous traits (ie, Reloader) into the core requirements. Whether or not it's too problematic, I'm not sure...that's the kind of thing testing is for.
--- Quote from: Gargulec ---
--- Quote from: Fanta Hege --- To be honest, making everything else as powerful as Ammochain and then buffing up the rest of the game doesn't seem that much of fun. =/
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Whyso? Acquiring power beyond measure (hey MAc!) is the very essence of fun in game for me. And then being presented with situation that DO require such power to solve could be even more fun.
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Sure, this could be something to work on right now. On the other hand, there are a lot of other ways to improve the game that don't involve spiking the difficulty curve: other special levels, a second "dungeon" (I was thinking Deimos: fewer formers, faster scaling of equipment, and with the Spiderdemon at the end instead of ol' Cybie), fixing the projectile pathing, and so on and so forth.
What is different about the power that comes from, say, acquiring Jackhammer or Railgun or double Blasters from the power of MAc is that it is absolutely guaranteed if you can survive the first bit (which, relative to any other build, isn't hard...we're only talking about Clvl 7). Afterwards, all ammo concerns are thrown out the window and, in a typical run, you'll already have the blessed A2 to make your shots pretty accurate. So long as you don't run into something that would kill ANYONE, it's a pretty straightforward rest of the game.
Anyway. Of the options I mentioned I would definitely pick the revision of Chained Court such that A2 is no longer guaranteed. Without accuracy, Ammochain is limited in its scope such that it would not be OP, and so reaching that status would require some luck. Just like any other build. (MAD needs shells later on, MGK superbly benefits from a special pistol, MCe wants open levels, et cetera.)
Doops:
blademaster should let you dual wield in melee
Gargulec:
--- Quote from: Doops on April 11, 2010, 13:50 ---blademaster should let you dual wield in melee
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Totally, completely useless. Damage output is not an issue in melee, so why the hell would one want to dual-wield. Also, dual wield what? Chainsaw and LS?
Gargulec:
--- Quote from: Doops on April 11, 2010, 15:40 ---2 knives. or put in swords or something.
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Two knives are still worse than one chainsaw. Or LS. Or BC. Or DS.
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