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[LockeCarnelia]

I have to agree with Sylph.

I see no shortage of YASD games on the Post-Mortems, which shows to me that people are still losing pretty often.  Except for me, but that's because I try to play this game to the point where I become one with the Doomguy.

Doomguy Mind Meld, baby.

[Simon-v]

Abuse or not, the "get shot by a shotgunner before the door even finishes opening" behavior is, sadly, consistent with the original Doom, as is corner-shooting, now that i think of it - remember how you pistol killed mancubi and cacos from behind decorations and chaingunners by shooting their barely-visible-behind-a-corner shoulders?

[LockeCarnelia]

Ayep.  Still do it all the time.

[Game Hunter]

Let's not forget that the removal of any of these abuses will likely be countered by some other balance that will keep the game playable. I agree that the game is still a little harder than it should be, but a lot of its difficulty comes from the opposite end of player exploits: that is, enemy exploits. Most of these are intentional right now, but several could get a toned-down treatment. For instance, I totally avoided mentioning formers in the last post, but their AI is certainly the most ridiculous (as underscored by commandos), such that there are situations where I know with about 95% certainty that I will not survive peeking out from a wall, nor will I ever hope to corner-shoot him. I'm not going to go on (it's for another thread, surely) but I'd rather the game get harder before getting easier...given that I play on UV/N! regularly (with UV always feeling a lot easier, even if it's not often a win) we could handle removing the exploits that only experienced players use anyway.

Abuse or not, the "get shot by a shotgunner before the door even finishes opening" behavior is, sadly, consistent with the original Doom, as is corner-shooting, now that i think of it - remember how you pistol killed mancubi and cacos from behind decorations and chaingunners by shooting their barely-visible-behind-a-corner shoulders?

Shall I list the ways that DoomRL isn't like Doom already? Not even including the ways they can't/shouldn't be similar:
- Weapons have clips
- Inventory for holding ammo rather than set numbers
- Items that the player can pick up
- Field of vision limited beyond an entire room
- Enemies can run out of ammo
- Enemies take splash damage from their own attacks
- No monster infighting
- No monster flinching

I can go on, but you get the point. It's a different game, one that should certainly give the player a feel for the original Doom...but it shouldn't be forced to accept the same exploits that the original game held. I mean, the fact that they're two entirely different genres should be a red flag for that idea. Hell, I can think of two things right now that succeed at making the game environmentally similar while easing up the difficulty:
- Arch-vile attacks are "charged" and take at least two seconds to work (with a notification that you're being targeted in the form of that yellow ring). Balanced by increasing the damage to 11d2 instead of 11d1.
- Revenant missiles should not home in 100% of the time, more like 50%. Doesn't need balancing, the missile is already ridiculous enough as is.

That said, I believe Kornel should be removing whatever is an abuse (by either party) that simply doesn't make sense unless considered from a hard-coded perspective.

To put it another way, these 'abuses' make the game fun. Without it, doomrl would just be a mind-numbing excersive in walking around and pressing the 'f' key, with little thought behind it.

Nor is the game all that finished by any form of the word. While the basics are there and a lot has been added, there is an enormous capacity for the game to change. I imagine that there a lot of ideas floating around in development for DoomRL 2, but if there's one thing that should be polished to a brilliant shine in DoomRL, it's the in-game combat system. We should be doing everything we can to at least TRY new things, then take a look and see how well those things work.

Tl;dr version: exploits need to be fixed, for easier or for harder, and I don't think Kornel would leave us hanging with a game too difficult to play.

[Gargulec]

Now, I do not give a damm about corner shooting, I do not utilize it.

But, allow me to say one thing.

Giftdropping MUST STAY!

It was already nerfed in .9.9, and now is perfectly balanced. Removing it would only make AoB much more irksome, especially for such fanatics as me, who try to get 100% kills in it. Irksome, or worse, undoable.

Please, do not "fix" giftdropping.

Please.

[Sylph]

Let's not forget that the removal of any of these abuses will likely be countered by some other balance that will keep the game playable. I agree that the game is still a little harder than it should be, but a lot of its difficulty comes from the opposite end of player exploits: that is, enemy exploits. Most of these are intentional right now, but several could get a toned-down treatment. For instance, I totally avoided mentioning formers in the last post, but their AI is certainly the most ridiculous (as underscored by commandos), such that there are situations where I know with about 95% certainty that I will not survive peeking out from a wall, nor will I ever hope to corner-shoot him. I'm not going to go on (it's for another thread, surely) but I'd rather the game get harder before getting easier...given that I play on UV/N! regularly (with UV always feeling a lot easier, even if it's not often a win) we could handle removing the exploits that only experienced players use anyway.
Shall I list the ways that DoomRL isn't like Doom already? Not even including the ways they can't/shouldn't be similar:
- Weapons have clips
- Inventory for holding ammo rather than set numbers
- Items that the player can pick up
- Field of vision limited beyond an entire room
- Enemies can run out of ammo
- Enemies take splash damage from their own attacks
- No monster infighting
- No monster flinching

I can go on, but you get the point. It's a different game, one that should certainly give the player a feel for the original Doom...but it shouldn't be forced to accept the same exploits that the original game held. I mean, the fact that they're two entirely different genres should be a red flag for that idea. Hell, I can think of two things right now that succeed at making the game environmentally similar while easing up the difficulty:
- Arch-vile attacks are "charged" and take at least two seconds to work (with a notification that you're being targeted in the form of that yellow ring). Balanced by increasing the damage to 11d2 instead of 11d1.
- Revenant missiles should not home in 100% of the time, more like 50%. Doesn't need balancing, the missile is already ridiculous enough as is.

That said, I believe Kornel should be removing whatever is an abuse (by either party) that simply doesn't make sense unless considered from a hard-coded perspective.
Nor is the game all that finished by any form of the word. While the basics are there and a lot has been added, there is an enormous capacity for the game to change. I imagine that there a lot of ideas floating around in development for DoomRL 2, but if there's one thing that should be polished to a brilliant shine in DoomRL, it's the in-game combat system. We should be doing everything we can to at least TRY new things, then take a look and see how well those things work.

Tl;dr version: exploits need to be fixed, for easier or for harder, and I don't think Kornel would leave us hanging with a game too difficult to play.

Please don't miss the critical context of my post - the idea of the game getting 'harder', 'easier', or 'more/less balanced' by the removal of abuse is something that can be easily fixed, and isn't an issue.
The problem with removing corner shooting and giftdropping, whether the game is rebalanced or not, is that it takes out *tactics*.

For example, let's say the game removed giftdropping and cornershooting, but gave doomguy twice as much health... It's still just as hard/easy, but the removal of the 'abuses' makes it a much more boring game. I'd rather have to think tactics to play doomrl than just manage my inventory to victory.

Put another way, try to ellaborate on what 'fun' would be added to the game by the removal of giftdroping and corner shooting.

[rchandra]

I don't feel that giftdropping _needs_ to be removed, but I hope it never becomes necessary.

[Game Hunter]

The problem with removing corner shooting and giftdropping, whether the game is rebalanced or not, is that it takes out *tactics*.

Well, it would take out some of the tactics. Let me be clear: I do not believe that corner-shooting should be removed ENTIRELY, just that being able to do it with a combat shotgun as well as you can is a little too powerful. Nevertheless, it's certainly a legitimate tactic as addressed previously. The fact that there are one-way shots and the like are bugs more than they are exploits, and should be fixed appropriately.

Gift-dropping, on the other hand, lacks the plausibility of an actual game tactic. Certain enemies like to pick up things, yes, and they will prioritize items they see over just about anything other than attacking the player, that's also true. By using these facts, one can determine an exploit that allows the player to lure enemies into melee distance by dropping an innocent-looking item into their view (without being in view the player). In short, it's an accidental consequence of the way the game is programmed. It's the equivalent of keeping in the blind spot of an enemy that, for the purposes of the game, shouldn't exist, or figuring out a way to carry more in your inventory by picking up items in some sequence. Gift-dropping abuses the simplicity of monster AI, something that makes little sense (if any) within the confines of DoomRL.

Put another way, try to ellaborate on what 'fun' would be added to the game by the removal of giftdroping and corner shooting.

Tactics that feel abusive aren't fun at all, and such is the case of gift-dropping for me. Let me give a concrete example.

On the Phobos Base Entry, half the time the map is generated such that the Sergeant guarding the stairs is a nice three or four tiles from reach, making it nearly impossible to approach him in AoB. The answer to this problem is a simple case of gift-dropping. The fact that there is no variation nor alternative to this approach bothers me: gift-dropping here isn't a tactic, it's a necessity. If I had the options of ranged weapons, I could use the pistol or shotgun (in UV/N!), and either attack while hugging the opposite wall or corner-shoot. Each has pros and cons, and over time one usually picks one over the other. One option may even BE better than the other, but at least the gamer has choices; that you have to use gift-dropping or face certain doom in the melee's scenario tells me that there's a problem.

I agree with you, Sylph, that balancing a system should not tamper with the originality and innovations that people come to like. What I do not like about gift-dropping is that it seems like the gamer's workaround based on the tools they have. Honestly, I'd like to think this game can handle better tactics.

In my first post, I suggested an alternative to gift-dropping in the form of noise-luring. At the very least, this existed in Doom and was an important part of the game, so it's reasonable to consider inclusion in DoomRL. The basic idea is that anything that can create noise (guns, barrels, screams during death) alerts enemies to that location, although they get bored after a while and will return to their normal movements. In Doom, pretty much attacking at all caused this noise, but it can be more creative here (varying by location, noise level, etc). To apply to AoB, consider that throwing a knife into a wall may make enough noise to lure enemies to you, and a chainsaw would certainly make enough noise (hell, introduce a "rev" alt fire to make sure it can always be used).

Sure, this is a whole new system and may take a lot of time to implement, but I believe it's a vastly superior tactic to gift-dropping. It can help a player greatly (such as in AoB) but also create problems, turning it into a significant part of the game that forces the player to play carefully and thoughtfully. In contrast, gift-dropping is some small quirk that can be done as the result of a loophole in enemy AI, a no-risk high-reward tactic in many cases.

I have only limited experience with gift-dropping, however, so I may be judging its ability unfairly. If you can explain why there is no alternative fix (in the form of a NEW tactic, such as the one aforementioned), I would definitely reconsider. In fact, I agree that, as long as there isn't a tactical replacement for gift-dropping, we shouldn't remove it. Ultimately, however, it's rather limited and the game should improve on its tactical capabilities.

[Gargulec]

I do have a lot of experience with giftdropping on AoB, though, and I believe that removing it would remove a very major piece of the play.

This tactic was strongly nerfed with .9.9 release, and now is more or less perfect, as well as essential for surviving the first few floors of the base, becoming more and more obsolete and unneeded as the DoomGuy gather traits and equipment. Without it, AoB would still be possible to complete, however it would become much more luck-based (ie. you are screwed if you get sergeants spawning in long corridors or spacious rooms), and as such, much more irritating.

And now giftdropping still requires a certain skill and, more or less often, a bit of sacrifice. As most of the enemies are lured only by consumables (since green armor on early level is often picked by them beforehand), you sometimes need to risk loosing very valuable med packs to survive.

And it is perfect. Giftdropping is part of AoB, as much as Berserker trait and Longinus Spear, and placing some sort of "sound system" in it's place would not only make the game needlessly complicated but also annoying for people who play with sound turned off (like me).

[Game Hunter]

A few more suspicious results I've found that strike me as exploitable:

- You cannot miss a barrel, including one that's beyond your line of sight. Been doing it quite a bit when a get Computer Map in pistol or rapid-fire runs, since it's the one thing I can absolutely expect to hit in the fog of war.
- Assault shotgun fully reloads from one step, which is to say all six shells. You can REALLY cut back on reloading times this way after some movement speed bonuses.
- Lost Souls attack pathing is rather limited, such that you can position yourself (while running away) to be attacked by only one Lost Soul at a time. If they're trying to hit you but cannot move, they should float around a bit to the sides (like in the game) and try again. (Although technically, Lost Souls should only fly in lines, but whatever.)

[Sambojin]

I guess this isn't really what's abusable, just what's a little too good in the game.

#1 Cut Ammo-chain down to 1/2 ammo consumption (on chainfire or for any fire of a "rapid-fire" weapon depending on what works). Makes ammo a LOT easier to conserve for plasma rifle/chaingun but still makes it worthwhile managing ammo/supplies (which is a big bit of the game). Plasma isn't just for the BFG.

#2 Make Juggler trait cost 0.20-0.30 seconds to switch weapons. Still very powerful and quick, just not instant. I've made too many stupid mistakes that Juggler has gotten me out of. I've based entire builds out of instant weapon switch. Its too good. Especially for two levels of experience.

#3 Make Juggler trait come off the Reloader trait. Reloader is under-used, very few master traits have a stop on it, and it lowers the "too-damn-synergystic-for-its-own-good" thing that an Ammochain build has going for it. (or two extra levels of schmuk to get it).

#4 Perhaps make Shottyman come off the Ironman trait. Makes a psuedo-shotty build possible with virtually any master-trait build (although it may make Army of the Dead a little to "tanky"). Shotguns are still crappy vs armour, but most people will take a level or two of Ironman near end-game. Just stops shotguns being "only early game" weapons without AotD.

If Juggler was "Reloader 2" and Shottyman an "Ironman 1" trait, and have AotD coming off Juggler (and Bad Ass), then with the above mentioned changes I think a lot of quirks and imbalances of the game would be ironed out. Perhaps. An alpha, beta, gamma or delta question I guess.


Just my thoughts. they might not be the best. We don't even have two cent coins in Australia. We round those kind of thoughts to the nearest five cents.

My 0c (nothing)

Sambojin.

[Tavana]

...

Just my thoughts. they might not be the best. We don't even have two cent coins in Australia. We round those kind of thoughts to the nearest five cents.

My 0c (nothing)

Sambojin.

I actually have in my possession 2x 1cent Australian coins from before the currency change. And yes, I save them for this specific purpose.

[Sambojin]

I have a few 2c and 1c coins. And strangely enough a couple of $2 notes (and some paper others, who knows what the economy will get up to, my superannuation went backwards in a huge time of prosperity, I may need my $2 to make a point some time).

In the sandbox that is my own little head I think I've realized Shottyman should be an "Ironman 2" trait, not 1. Saves it being the new "go-to" trait.

Another piece of non-existent copper.

Sambojin.

[AStranger]

It seems like most people agree that gift dropping and corner shooting are the most common abuses the player can use, but no one has said anything about the abuses the game uses. Think of DoomRL as a two player game, one person vs one computer. The player's abuses can definitely give the player slight advantage, but no abuse will win the game outright (unless there is one I'm forgetting). Unfortunately on the computer's side of things, most of its 'abuses' range from powerful to game ending (a win outright for the computer). In no particular order here are some of the things the game does that might be abusive.

Acid/Lava rooms - Slight abuse - Pulling a lever that fills the floor with a painful liquid can kill a lot of players who aren't prepared. Sure it has a tiny amount of offensive use, but unless you have an enviro-suit you'll probably die too. The simple solution is to never pull a lever with a character you are trying to win with.

Starting the player in a room full of lost souls - Moderate abuse - We've all lost low level characters by entering a level to be surrounded by lost souls. Often times the player never had a chance (especially on dlevel 2 or a challenge game). The player can't take actions to avoid this fate.

Using the largest Phobos Base for the dlevel 1 - Moderate abuse - I'm only calling this moderate because it really only applies to N!/challenge games, but starting the player with the level layout that is a large rectangular base pretty much means the character should just quit and start over. The starting two shotgunners generally are placed in such a way that even gift dropping can't get you in the building without taking a good amount of damage. It feels pointless to leave that starting level with no medpacks and 20% health, but it often happens on this level. If you are okay with start scumming for characters (which I'm not) then this isn't a problem, but if you play every doomguy like he's your last, it gets annoying quickly.

Early acid bottlenecks - Moderate abuse - Placing the player/stairs in such a way that the player must traverse over a large acid area to get to the stairs can be almost as good as killing them. Best case scenario the player spends some resources, worst case it happens dlevel 2 or 3 before you have what it takes to get across. I'm only calling this moderate because sometimes a well pushed barrel or two can open up a different path and after the first few levels the player should be able to deal with it somehow anyways.

Arachnatron caves - Major Abuse - I can't even count how many promising characters I've lost to 'unwinnable' arachnatron caves. Being spawned in an open area in sight of 4-6 arachnatrons usually means death. Sometimes you get lucky and can see the stairs, or are off to a side with the stairs near, but most of the time if you aren't invulnerable while entering the level, you're going to die, even with Tanx3. Phase devices can sometimes help, but when the mobs around you can damage 75% of your health in one turn, no amount of medpacks will save you. If you need to heal every turn so you can survive the next volley, you'll never walk anywhere. I'm not saying the arachnatron caves should be removed, but it'd be nice if something changed.

Berserker bug - Abuse - Obviously this is known about and a bug, but it still makes me sad whenever it happens. If you stop berserking late game in melee, you are as good as dead since with the chainsaw or spear, most mobs will be dying in one hit. A berserk from a death is a bad berserk, so it's much harder late game to trigger a good berserk without finding a globe first.

Maybe I'm biased because 95% of my games are N! challenges, but a lot of times I feel like I'm playing against the RNG and not against the game itself. I'm all for removing player abuses, as long as they don't need them to counter act the RNG abuses.

[Fanta Hege]

Using the largest Phobos Base for the dlevel 1 - Moderate abuse - I'm only calling this moderate because it really only applies to N!/challenge games, but starting the player with the level layout that is a large rectangular base pretty much means the character should just quit and start over. The starting two shotgunners generally are placed in such a way that even gift dropping can't get you in the building without taking a good amount of damage. It feels pointless to leave that starting level with no medpacks and 20% health, but it often happens on this level. If you are okay with start scumming for characters (which I'm not) then this isn't a problem, but if you play every doomguy like he's your last, it gets annoying quickly.

...This is actually one of the most wished level outlays as a starter level for any other challenge than meelee. The enemies are so easily put on this, just go up the level, take out the one shotgunner of the above setting and then the one below with the shotgun you loot, this is also very to kill the rest of the formers and the ending shotgunner can't suprise meatshot you.

However in meelee game, this level is pure hell and I usualy just suicide in AoB or meelee games if this is my starter level.