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Monster Tiers & Irks

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kossa:
Rev's are missing their powerful "rocket" punch. Try to get punched on Doom 2 and you'll see what I mean. Mancubi don't have splash damage on Doom 2 but without it they would become relatively harmless in DoomRL.

Game Hunter:

--- Quote from: Stormlock on November 13, 2010, 02:24 ---I sort of think of the barons and archviles as being in their own tier personally. Barons are just incredibly difficult to kill when they make use of items. Full healing, phasing, red armor wearing barons are a nightmare. Archviles are there for the obvious reasons. Mancubus and Revenants aren't nearly as troublesome, since they're harmless in melee range and not especially fast or durable. Arachnotrons are also nearly harmless in melee range, considering the xp and ammo they cough up.
--- End quote ---

Arch-viles are also rather easy at melee range: the trick is that they're ridiculously fast, so it can be hard to keep them at the proper distance. Mancubi and Revenants, like Arch-viles, are difficult because of their devastating attacks from a distance. Considering a Mancubus in particular has the capacity to kill a player in a single volley, it's not surprising that I place them so high.

The fact that Barons can use items is more an annoyance than it is a game-changer. This is only really important early on, too, where formers and HKs are far more common.


--- Quote from: Stormlock on November 13, 2010, 02:24 ---Don't the barons also destroy armor faster with their attack?
--- End quote ---
That only depends on the amount of damage they deal. If you mean the original game, it's the same case there anyway.


--- Quote from: kossa on November 17, 2010, 08:22 ---Rev's are missing their powerful "rocket" punch. Try to get punched on Doom 2 and you'll see what I mean. Mancubi don't have splash damage on Doom 2 but without it they would become relatively harmless in DoomRL.

--- End quote ---
The big three (Rev/Mancu/Vile) lack melee attacks in DoomRL. Supposedly they used to, but I have yet to ever take damage from one, even when cornered. If Revs were to have their old punch, I imagine they'd probably try to close the distance if near the player enough and forget about projectiles (which could possibly be a nice tactic against them).

Fanta Hege:

--- Quote ---The big three (Rev/Mancu/Vile) lack melee attacks in DoomRL. Supposedly they used to, but I have yet to ever take damage from one, even when cornered. If Revs were to have their old punch, I imagine they'd probably try to close the distance if near the player enough and forget about projectiles (which could possibly be a nice tactic against them).
--- End quote ---

Mancubi, Revenants and Viles did have those in one of the earlier versions.
But they were removed because, they really did act like that if I recall correctly.

Honestly I wouldn't mind of Revenants had their punch back, but it doesn't really matter for Vile and Mancubi as they didn't have them in the original game. Revenant punch would be hard to make work correctly without giving back the advantage of them forgetting the projectile.

When it comes to monsters, I'd personaly think Imps should have their accuracy reduced tiny bit. I also find them to be bit of a medium monsters, just because of their sheer numbers, the splash damage and their damn sniper like accuracy.

I also personaly find Pain elementals to be a joke. Sure they act like they are suppoused, no argument about that, but they don't really cause any actualy threat in 95% of the games. They are so fragile, and the fact that the lost souls spawn right next to them make them all very easy to take down as a group. I'd say pain elemental should shoot one of the lost souls just like in the original game towards the marine, and should probably have more health aswell. Only game I ever had problem with pain elemental was when I ran into a cavern of them on AoMR and even that was situational.

Game Hunter:

--- Quote from: Fanta Hege on November 17, 2010, 12:57 ---Honestly I wouldn't mind of Revenants had their punch back, but it doesn't really matter for Vile and Mancubi as they didn't have them in the original game. Revenant punch would be hard to make work correctly without giving back the advantage of them forgetting the projectile.
--- End quote ---
Those enemies could just use their normal attack at melee range (trust me on that one). Because splash is a concern (and because AoB would just be stupid-hard at that point) we can't use that, and yet there are plenty of other enemies that are given melee when adjacent (all formers, for instance). Rev AI would be fine with the "melee when within a few tiles" but Viles and Mancubi should only use it when the player becomes adjacent, as with formers.


--- Quote from: Fanta Hege on November 17, 2010, 12:57 ---When it comes to monsters, I'd personaly think Imps should have their accuracy reduced tiny bit. I also find them to be bit of a medium monsters, just because of their sheer numbers, the splash damage and their damn sniper like accuracy.
--- End quote ---
True, but they can't compete with Cacos/HKs. They're only problematic early on, something untrue of Sergeants, who can still deal significant damage later in the game (and Captains for higher difficulties). Imps aren't very reliable when it comes to attacking at all times, either, so I have no problems.


--- Quote from: Fanta Hege on November 17, 2010, 12:57 ---I also personaly find Pain elementals to be a joke. Sure they act like they are suppoused, no argument about that, but they don't really cause any actualy threat in 95% of the games. They are so fragile, and the fact that the lost souls spawn right next to them make them all very easy to take down as a group. I'd say pain elemental should shoot one of the lost souls just like in the original game towards the marine, and should probably have more health aswell. Only game I ever had problem with pain elemental was when I ran into a cavern of them on AoMR and even that was situational.
--- End quote ---
I don't suppose it would be possible to give them an attack whose projectile is a Lost Soul? This is how it's done in the original, and it would (at the very least) distract the player from killing the PE. Then, giving it the typical chance of attacking (which is like, all the time) would ensure that it produces plenty of them.

Stormlock:

--- Quote from: Game Hunter on November 17, 2010, 08:54 ---

The fact that Barons can use items is more an annoyance than it is a game-changer. This is only really important early on, too, where formers and HKs are far more common.

--- End quote ---

I have to disagree here. Formers with medpacks don't matter that much, since you can take them down in a single shotgun blast. On the other hand, if you're relying on low damage weaponry like pistols or a shotgun to take out a baron, they'll definitely get to use every item at their disposal. It's largely luck based, but in my last AoS game I splattered a former who dropped TWO large medkits and some armor. If it'd been a baron instead, I'd have probably died trying to kill him. I've also noticed enemies can pick up unique armor as well. A Baron with Cyber armor is no joke. A Baron with Cyber Armor and 2 medpacks is like running into the Cyberdemon several levels early. (Well, less hp, but damage is about the same, since he doesn't stop to reload, and more armor until you burn it off him.)

It's true they're not a problem if you have some decked out plasma rifle ammochain build, but if you aren't, and you're trying to take them out 10 damage at a time while they fling fireballs at you and other enemies are closing in from elsewhere, the difference between a 5 turn fight and a 15 turn fight is life or death. And there's no way to know if they have armor or items on them until they use them.

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