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[M|AoMr|100%|25|YAAM] They told me that Dualgunner was better.

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C4Cypher:
Perhaps I'm being overly sensitive about the Chained Court thing, it's nice to have a sanity check on skipping special levels that are only relevant outside AoMr and AoB.

I know I was being full of myself here, what really spelled it out to me was looking at my mortem after I posted it, and looking at the kill counts to those of mortems posted on higher difficulties. I know that statistically speaking, single pistols would not

I started this more to test a build more to impress anyone, I let it emotionally snowball when I started to pick up the 100% bit as a way to keep things more challenging. The transition from E to M was incredibly painful, yet once I started to get a few M wins under my belt, actually learning to play with the added mob count and normal ammo and powerups. I adapted much more quickly, to my own surprise, I expected M to stay hard, instead E runs are painfully boring now.

Yes, the transition from M to H is easier, but I got really spooked by winning my first H run (especially when told that I would die a lot) ... and even more badly spooked by, a pistol wielder's wet dream of a run in terms of mods and other 'fun stuff'. Still trying to process that one mentally.  I'm afraid to try a third, honestly, simply due to the simply bizarre flukes that started to happen once I started to run H. I bow in gratitude and humility to the RNG God, who has bestowed his blessings upon one so unworthy.



The input on the pistol comparison is hugely helpful. I should really use the stuff posted in the Minor article and start working out my own stats.

I've gotten what really intended out of this, and that was lessons learned concerning my non-AoMr build.  Fin->Jug->SoGxSoB ... starting early with shotguns and then transitioning to pistols once the DPS traits are up, very, very flexible build.

First thing that I've learned is that Juggler isn't worth a hill of beans if you don't have damage to leverage with that flexibility and swap bonus. It's almost pointless to take early in an AoMr build until damage and speed catch up with magazine capacity, whereas early in a standard run it gives you many options as far as rapidly cycling through pistols and shotguns, and stays useful as you progress through unloading your arsenal, starting with your pistols or Unique/Exotic equipped weapons and then working down the line with your shotguns and other 'standard' weapons without reloading.

Second thing I've learned is that you CAN use dualgunner in this build, without worrying about the ammo expenditure, as you've got so many other weapons you could keep ready in that prepared slot, keeping dual pistols only if you really need them, giving yourself the capacity to switch between the ammo efficient and faster (per 'f' press) single pistol, to the devastating power of dualgunner.

Third lesson is that this build probably doesn't need the full SoB3 SoG3 ... I've learned to take SoB earlier, to give a bit more punch to your early shotguns, and then use them as you build up SoG, but at most take SoBx2 early, just to save room for other traits and get the pistols up faster.

I also realize that these things are probably apparent to those with more experience. I'm just curious as to why Juggler builds aren't mentioned more as opposed to more specialized builds which seem to be what most people focus on.  I enjoy the pistol game, but I recognize that the pistols, even when very powerful, are situational, and weak in certain situations (Pain Elemental cave?)  You're also sacrificing a lot of survivability for DPS.

Playing in a variety of different ways is fun, but I love picking one aspect of a game, preferably a road less traveled, using it, giving it my own touch, and perfecting it. Thus my unusual fixation on using and tweaking one specific build.

As always Gamehunter, thanks for the input, and the overenthusiasm tolerance.

grommile:
Specialized builds tend to simplify resource management. (Ridiculously so in the case of MAc, of course.)

Game Hunter:

--- Quote from: C4Cypher on November 09, 2010, 11:23 ---I know I was being full of myself here, what really spelled it out to me was looking at my mortem after I posted it, and looking at the kill counts to those of mortems posted on higher difficulties. I know that statistically speaking, single pistols would not
--- End quote ---
Looks like you forgot something. :P


--- Quote from: C4Cypher on November 09, 2010, 11:23 ---I started this more to test a build more to impress anyone...
--- End quote ---
I understood as much. Testing builds is as important a part of learning as painstakingly committing to conservative tactics. Of course, that doesn't mean you need to be posting mortems every time it works out for you. While there is nothing wrong with mortems, I tend only to bother posting them here if they are of particular importance, with badge-getting as the highest priority. What I'm getting at, I suppose, is that mortems aren't limited only to the mortem forum: if you want to discuss a build in Discussion and have mortems to back up your findings, go for it. Beginners aside (and I wouldn't call you that anymore) this place is for sweet victories, not padded resumes.


--- Quote from: C4Cypher on November 09, 2010, 11:23 ---The input on the pistol comparison is hugely helpful. I should really use the stuff posted in the Minor article and start working out my own stats.
--- End quote ---
Heh, we really need to do something about that page on the Wiki. It's not linked to anything, either.

I happened to write up the DPS comparison myself, but it needs some fixing since I last revised it. There's actually no difference between firing types for the combat shotgun, for instance: in fact, it's more likely that reloading the shells individually will take less time. Lemme go take care of those errors now, actually.


--- Quote from: C4Cypher on November 09, 2010, 11:23 ---I've gotten what really intended out of this, and that was lessons learned concerning my non-AoMr build.  Fin->Jug->SoGxSoB ... starting early with shotguns and then transitioning to pistols once the DPS traits are up, very, very flexible build.

1. Juggler isn't worth a hill of beans if you don't have damage to leverage with that flexibility and swap bonus.

2. You CAN use dualgunner in this build, without worrying about the ammo expenditure, as you've got so many other weapons you could keep ready in that prepared slot, keeping dual pistols only if you really need them, giving yourself the capacity to switch between the ammo efficient and faster (per 'f' press) single pistol, to the devastating power of dualgunner.

3. This build probably doesn't need the full SoB3 SoG3...
--- End quote ---
As pistol-hybrid builds go, starting with Fin->Jug is a pretty good idea.


--- Quote from: C4Cypher on November 09, 2010, 11:23 ---I also realize that these things are probably apparent to those with more experience. I'm just curious as to why Juggler builds aren't mentioned more as opposed to more specialized builds which seem to be what most people focus on.  I enjoy the pistol game, but I recognize that the pistols, even when very powerful, are situational, and weak in certain situations (Pain Elemental cave?)  You're also sacrificing a lot of survivability for DPS.
--- End quote ---
It's hard to say that there's such a thing as a "Juggler build" because it's also hard to think of an entire strategy that revolves around that one trait (which is what a titular build usually implies). Pistols require SoG to be truly effective; rapid-fire require SoB and EE for the most part; dual shotguns/combats/doubles only last so long before enemies are surviving all your shots. Juggler is more of a complementary than it is a supplementary: has great situational use (and therefore worth spending the point) but cannot be solely relied on.

I've tinkered with a shotgun/explosives hybrid that plays out as Fin->Jug->Fin->(WK, Rel)->(Tan, HR, Iro) which has had some degree of success. The idea is that you rely early on the shotgun's punching power, then make your way to RL and BFG as time passes and use those for major damage later on. Juggler is required because explosive weapons cannot be used safely in close quarters and so you need a reliable means to swap out. In addition, it's a flexible strategy that allows for WK whenever you get mods for it, and the defensive traits will keep you healthy even if the explosives don't work out.

As to your lessons learned:

1. There are two reasons for Juggler: to maximize DPS between two weapons, and to reliably make use of several weapons in the heat of battle. In one game I was fortunate enough to get my hands on a BFG10K (during an MAc build no less) but the splash and recoil made it impractical in hallways. However, with Juggler, I could carry it as my active weapon at all times and swap for a plasma rifle if the situation called for it, and still keep the missile launcher in my prepared slot if the situation called for it as well.

2. Yes, this is the point I was making in my last post. Single-pistol builds can be pretty fun though, not to mention a foregone conclusion for the coveted Marksman Diamond (although I don't want you to worry about THAT badge just yet).

3. This depends on what kind of timing you want before your pistols become your means of DPS. On the other hand, racking up SoB for the sake of a combat shotgun isn't worth a whole lot of damage. You're probably saving on about 10% of your shells (at best, which is to say against formers and imps) and the difference in number of shots against the big guys is much less, even with the full SoBx3. If you don't plan on using the pistols until much later, by all means. You'll find that higher difficulties make it a lot harder to delay it, however.

C4Cypher:
I'm currently running this build (yeah, I call it Desperado, but I'm going to stick with my 'juggler build' until I actually have something conclusive) on Ao100.  What I'm finding is that taking one or two points in SoB early contribute to all weapons, especially when you eventually pick up a plasma.

Early game, your pistol/pistols are popguns, taking Jug as quickly as possible allows you to pick up the Shotgun, Combat Shotgun and Double shotgun early, giving you a lot of early game damage output. As you get deeper, find more diversified weapons to quickswap by the numbers such as the Rocket Laucher, Plasma Rifle and the BFG, you'll start to drop all but one of the shotguns depending on where you go with things, keep the Cshotty for radaring, or Dshotty for flip-out point blank damage, keeping one stack of shotgun ammo in reserve.

I've worked out Fin->Jug->SoB->SoGx3 ... but I find that point, the build you pick really can be made to fit how your game is going thus far, taking Fin->Wiz->SoB if you're getting a lot of mods, DG->SoB->Fin->EE or something like that if you really want to pump your pistols, Hell->Hell->Hell->DM if you want to catch your enemy by surprise, start with the initiative with each encounter, and give yourself more survivability, or even perhaps EE->EE->Int->Int ... or  even most insane, if you're getting enough XP,  SoB->EE->EE->Int->MCe.

Rather than sticking to a strict string of traits, I'm finding myself only pushing as far as that second or third SoG before I find that I can flex or twist the build to suit how the run is going, and what I'm picking up, and it's a whole lot of fun to spill out a combination of 6 to 12 pistol rounds, 1 to 7 shotgun rounds, a plasma burst, a rocket, and/or even a BFG round before the enemy has time to think.

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