Topic: Maze level type- is it really necessary to have them? (Read 11293 times)

Gargulec · « **on:** December 30, 2010, 17:15 »

So, after bazzlinoth stupid death caused by the maze level layout more than anything and short chat with Malek, I am wondering if it would not be better for the game to remove the maze level type from it altogether. Such levels are boring, unfairly dangerous and overall un-fun. It is not a good sign if a players groans out of annoyance upon being spawned in such place.

Of course, this would also decrease the overall variety of levels, and that would be horrible... so, well, what is your opinion?

thelaptop · « **Reply #1 on:** December 30, 2010, 17:19 »

In keeping with the hellish nature of the game, maze levels should still be around. Remember that those pesky Barons and Knights of Hells look like minotaurs in disguise, and what better place to have them than in a maze?

But the number of mazes need to be reduced, that's for sure. We're playing DoomRL, not Pacman. An alternative is to have a maze level full of teleports. =D

Actually, on further thought, perhaps it would be great if we made the corridors of the maze levels wider than just that one sliver of a tile. That way, we still maintain the map type, without the drawbacks of random deathtraps that should never have been there in the first place.

ParaSait · « **Reply #2 on:** December 30, 2010, 17:31 »

Quote from: Gargulec on December 30, 2010, 17:15

Such levels are boring, unfairly dangerous and overall un-fun. It is not a good sign if a players groans out of annoyance upon being spawned in such place.

Why, Hell is not supposed to be a safe and fun place either...! :P

Seriously now; wouldn't it be more fun to simply make the maze levels less complex?
I'm making a wild guess here but I think instead of a spaghetti of 1-tile wide hallways, why not make it a macaroni (heh) of 2- and/or 3-tile wide hallways (with maybe a few narrow 1-tile ones).
It'd make the level 1) Easier to navigate, 2) More space to fight and dodge, 3) Not too sophisticated, so the player has less of a hard time to find paths.

EDIT: Well, thelaptop in the meantime already suggested the same.

Gargulec · « **Reply #3 on:** December 30, 2010, 18:07 »

This idea I can get behind. Edited the poll.

Fanta Hege · « **Reply #4 on:** December 31, 2010, 13:37 »

They are a part of the game, it would be silly to remove them all together.
They are anoying yes, but I couldn't imagine this game without them either..

Personaly speaking, make them just bit more rarer. Thats all.

While you're at it, make hellish caverns rare aswell, now THOSE are seriously un fun.

grommile · « **Reply #5 on:** December 31, 2010, 15:00 »

I don't mind mazes; I greatly prefer them to the wide-open levels (city, cave).

Shoop da Whoop · « **Reply #6 on:** December 31, 2010, 15:58 »

I'd like if there was random empty places in mazes.
And, maybe, the special level maze with ~~minotaurs~~ B's.

Game Hunter · « **Reply #7 on:** January 03, 2011, 16:05 »

Well, we got five different level types already:

Maze of Rooms
Hellish Caves
Maze
Arena
Hellish City

This is roughly in the order they can appear (Maze of Rooms is always on floor 2, cave/maze can be right after that, I've seen Arenas as early as floor 5, cities come right about there). Any of these level types prior to Hellgate, other than mazes, can come with random pools of water (early) or acid (late). After Hellgate, any level type including mazes can come with random pools of lava.

Enough background, though, we're all more interested in how hard they get. Early on, yes, mazes are a pain and likely the most hazardous type. As the enemy challenge level increases, however, Arenas and Hellish Caves definitely become more difficult, simply over the lack of reliable cover. Mazes at least have the benefit of providing cover, and its walls are destructible such that players can open up the area themselves. Dealing with the more vicious enemies in the game (Arachs, Viles, Mancubi, Revs) requires both offense and defense, and in Mazes you're lucky enough to be allowed these luxuries.

If you want to fix the amount of death caused by mazes, I suggest that the level type simply appear at a later time. It might be a good opportunity to introduce a new type altogether: I recall someone suggesting a warehouse, which could be simplified as big rooms (that is, doors between them) with mini-mazes filled with boxes that are easily blown away by shotgun fire. This would create the same capabilities one has later on with the Maze type, without the extra difficulty it causes in the early stages.

thelaptop · « **Reply #8 on:** January 03, 2011, 17:11 »

Quote from: Game Hunter on January 03, 2011, 16:05

If you want to fix the amount of death caused by mazes, I suggest that the level type simply appear at a later time.

That's not the point. The issue is that the current maze levels have very narrow corridors to the point that even if you were completely equipped with full life, one stray blast from something out of your field of vision can just reduce you to nothing. That's just not even remotely fair -- we want hard games, but we also want them to be fair enough. Having the maze levels appearing later is probably not going to help this point; it'll just delay the eventual swearing when the same thing occurs to the well-equipped Doomguy at that stage.

Game Hunter · « **Reply #9 on:** January 03, 2011, 18:05 »

Quote from: thelaptop on January 03, 2011, 17:11

The issue is that the current maze levels have very narrow corridors to the point that even if you were completely equipped with full life, one stray blast from something out of your field of vision can just reduce you to nothing....Having the maze levels appearing later is probably not going to help this point; it'll just delay the eventual swearing when the same thing occurs to the well-equipped Doomguy at that stage.

Which is why you can do this:

Quote from: Game Hunter on January 03, 2011, 16:05

Mazes at least have the benefit of providing cover, and its walls are destructible such that players can open up the area themselves.

On the other hand, you're not expected to have a utility-based stash of rockets until later on, where enemies that drop them start to appear. That's why Warehouses (big rooms with easily-removed crate mazes) before Mazes (mostly hallways but filled with rocket-destroyable walls) would be a reasonable answer. If players can't figure out how to modify the terrain to their advantage while being "well-equipped," they might deserve that kind of death. Dying in a second to something unknown until that second is a pretty common death, however, and will happen even in Hellish Cities: learning to avoid situations where these happen is part of the journey to getting some serious victories.

While I can't provide a screenshot at the moment, maze levels tend to be random when it comes to the layout, not only in terms of twists and turns but the width of hallways. You'll see the narrow variety often, true, but wide mazes exist (probably just as often) and still have the same problems, if not moreso (as you can fit more monsters in a wide hallway to suddenly attack you). Furthermore, narrow hallways can also happen in the Maze of Rooms layout (and are indeed the bane of Berserkers and Pacifists everywhere).

If you want to get rid of narrow hallways, rather than the Maze type, I think I can get behind that.

ParaSait · « **Reply #10 on:** January 03, 2011, 19:12 »

Quote from: thelaptop on January 03, 2011, 17:11

Having the maze levels appearing later is probably not going to help this point; it'll just delay the eventual swearing when the same thing occurs to the well-equipped Doomguy at that stage.

... �nd make it more intense. :>

Game Hunter · « **Reply #11 on:** January 03, 2011, 19:18 »

Here's a wide-maze example:

You picked up a small med-pack. There is a green armor [1/1] (45%) lying here. ############################################################################## #.................0.....#........#................0............#..#........#.# #.0.....................#........#.....#.......................#..#....0...#.# #..###################..####..#######..#..#.....####..#..####..#..#..#..#..#.# #................................#.....#..#.....#..#..#..#........#..#..#..#.# #..........0.....................#.....#..#.....#..#..#..#.....#..#..#..#..#.# ####........#..#..#.#####..#.....####..#..#..#..#..#..#..####..#..#.#####..#.# #...........#..#..#........#.....#........#..#.....#..#..#..............#..#.# #.....0.....#..#..#.0......#.....#.....%%.#..#.....#..#..#............>.#..#.# #############..#..#..#####.####%.####..########%...#..#..#%....#####.#..#..#.# #..........0...#..#......%%#..........%.%..%...%.%.#..#.%#%%.........#.0...#.# #..............#...........#...................%%.....#..#%%.........#.....#.# #.########..####..##############.#.###########..#%.#######........#..#.....#.# #..............#.................#.......%....%%#........#........#..#.......# #..............#.................#...0..........#0...%...#........#..#.......# #..#.....#.....#..##############.#############..#.....#..#.#####..#..#..###### #@}#.....#.....#................................#.....#...........#..#.......# #..#.....#.....#................................#.....#......................# ############################################################################## Game Hunter Armor : green armor [1/1] (100%) Health: 74% Exp: 3/93% Weapon: combat shotgun (7d3) [5/5] cautious Phobos Base Lev4

There are SOME narrow passageways but it's mostly pretty big in general. This also gives rise to some rather nasty pockets of enemies, though.

thelaptop · « **Reply #12 on:** January 03, 2011, 19:35 »

Quote from: Game Hunter on January 03, 2011, 19:18

Here's a wide-maze example:

You picked up a small med-pack. There is a green armor [1/1] (45%) lying here. ############################################################################## #.................0.....#........#................0............#..#........#.# #.0.....................#........#.....#.......................#..#....0...#.# #..###################..####..#######..#..#.....####..#..####..#..#..#..#..#.# #................................#.....#..#.....#..#..#..#........#..#..#..#.# #..........0.....................#.....#..#.....#..#..#..#.....#..#..#..#..#.# ####........#..#..#.#####..#.....####..#..#..#..#..#..#..####..#..#.#####..#.# #...........#..#..#........#.....#........#..#.....#..#..#..............#..#.# #.....0.....#..#..#.0......#.....#.....%%.#..#.....#..#..#............>.#..#.# #############..#..#..#####.####%.####..########%...#..#..#%....#####.#..#..#.# #..........0...#..#......%%#..........%.%..%...%.%.#..#.%#%%.........#.0...#.# #..............#...........#...................%%.....#..#%%.........#.....#.# #.########..####..##############.#.###########..#%.#######........#..#.....#.# #..............#.................#.......%....%%#........#........#..#.......# #..............#.................#...0..........#0...%...#........#..#.......# #..#.....#.....#..##############.#############..#.....#..#.#####..#..#..###### #@}#.....#.....#................................#.....#...........#..#.......# #..#.....#.....#................................#.....#......................# ############################################################################## Game Hunter Armor : green armor [1/1] (100%) Health: 74% Exp: 3/93% Weapon: combat shotgun (7d3) [5/5] cautious Phobos Base Lev4
There are SOME narrow passageways but it's mostly pretty big in general. This also gives rise to some rather nasty pockets of enemies, though.

I think this is more of RNG luck. I have cases where it was mostly narrow ones in a nasty way. I think it boils down to how to tweak the generation algorithm to create more of such mazes (as in your screenshot) as opposed to the ones that we see more often [with more narrow corridors].

atat · « **Reply #13 on:** January 04, 2011, 02:37 »

Personally I like maze level's they provide plenty of cover.

ParaSait · « **Reply #14 on:** January 04, 2011, 06:38 »

Quote from: atat on January 04, 2011, 02:37

Personally I like maze level's they provide plenty of cover.

And always full of fun surprises! >^_^<
I will stop the sarcasm now.

Fanta Hege · « **Reply #15 on:** January 04, 2011, 15:03 »

Okay you guys, I can understand the point of the suprises killing you in mazes... but why the hell can't you just, you know, scout a head? Like in every level type there is? Open routes up?
This should be possible in any challenge mode apart from AoPC and AoB.
I can understand mazes to be cheap in AoPC, in AoB mazes are however useful level types in early game atleast as enemies get less spread and you can get face to face faster.

You can easily corner shoot those corners in mazes, hell its actually easier than in other level types. You have less spread for enemies. They are easy picking for scouting considering you don't need to shoot in many directions to guess their specific locations.

The amount of cover provided by mazes is enourmous. You can easily always find a safe place to corner shoot.

Only real problem in mazes are mancubi due of the fireing volley bug, but with scouting a head, even they shouldn't be a problem.

I'm gona sound a bit mean; But if mazes kill you in standart game, you're pretty bad at this game, unless the beta has killed the corner shooting complety.

And I'm gona say it again; Caverns are far cheaper and deadlier than mazes will ever be.

Gargulec · « **Reply #16 on:** January 04, 2011, 15:29 »

Fanta, I must disagree with your statement about mazes in AoB.

Mazes in AoB, if you are aiming for 100% kills, as I do, are a friggin' death-trap. You can scout ahead, but one ill-placed barrel with one ill-placed imp can kill you in rather unfair manner. And you can't dodge, and sometimes, you can't even bypass.

Sereg · « **Reply #17 on:** January 26, 2011, 19:47 »

I also like mazes, they're among the safest of levels for me.

They do take awhile to navigate, but I can't really see that being a problem for anyone other then an AoPc, AoRa, or a Compet-N/Icarus game.

Going for 100% kills could be a problem, I suppose, but moreso for AoRa then AoB (at least as far as my experience would lead me to believe - AoB is always easiest in small, confined space[for me], but an AoRa trying to clear a maze level had better hope for Invulnerability).

Edit: After checking the current built-in challenges, AoHa and AoRa are the only Angels required to complete 100% kills. AoB/100% is strictly optional as far as I can tell.

Kashi · « **Reply #18 on:** January 31, 2011, 11:53 »

Quote from: thelaptop on December 30, 2010, 17:19

An alternative is to have a maze level full of teleports. =D

Now, this is one interesting idea. We really need to see shit like that around the game.

Either way, having mazes helps to add to the creepy atmosphere the game should have, being a RL of DooM, people. And what would add to the creepyness factor than a series of thin mazes where unknown dangers lurk, eager and ready to jump at our necks the moment they see us. I vote for them to stay, but adding a secondary maze type, with the "bunch of teleporters" idea of thelaptop.

EDIT: Now that I'm playing Doom and Doom 2 AGAIN (For memory's sake, mostly, as those were some of my first games), I see that several MAZES exist on the levels. Yes, noodle-thin mazes with enemies, barrels and stuff like that. It's viable that they should exist, because they were in the original (And they still scare like hell when something that moves pops out of the blue.

mcz117chief · « **Reply #19 on:** February 02, 2011, 06:33 »

Although at 1st i was completely against the maze levels, I think it would be better to keep them but make the corridors wide, like in the example from Game Hunter.

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Author Topic: Maze level type- is it really necessary to have them? (Read 11293 times)