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Author Topic: Assemblies thoughts  (Read 11146 times)

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Re: Assemblies thoughts
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2011, 18:16 »

MGK works pretty well when you consider the full extent of what you have:

- Two pistols at 120% firing speed (big DPS boost)
- HR helps match SoG so you have fast fire AND move speed
- MGK gives you (basically) a free shot whenever you dodge a projectile
- MGK also reloads your weapons whenever you kill something

So you can avoid, fire, avoid, fire some more, etc. It's pretty good against Cacodemons and Barons and the like, but naturally Revenants and Arch-viles have auto-damage so it doesn't help a lot there. I wouldn't mix high power pistols with it: PB-mixing is probably your best bet, however (just don't assemble it together). MGK is made for the more active pistol player who doesn't like "sneaking around the sides and corner shooting and doing other sorts of blind fire tricks," so maybe it's not the build for you if you happen to enjoy that kind of stuff.

Personally, my pistol build has been as follows:

SoG(x3) -> EE -> SoB -> Fin(x2) -> WK -> SoB(x2) -> WK

It can change depending on mods after level 5, but I play for a fully-moddable single pistol for maximum knockback effect. No DG, or MGK, just pure single-shot goodness. If you DO play DG, you shouldn't get so much knockback that you end up wasting bullets, meaning fewer SoB and probably some Rel.
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Tavana

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Re: Assemblies thoughts
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2011, 00:10 »

For reference, you don't HAVE to build these assemblies. You can always hit "n" and just go for a lot of mods.
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Re: Assemblies thoughts
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2011, 06:37 »

MGK works pretty well when you consider the full extent of what you have:

- Two pistols at 120% firing speed (big DPS boost)
- HR helps match SoG so you have fast fire AND move speed
- MGK gives you (basically) a free shot whenever you dodge a projectile
- MGK also reloads your weapons whenever you kill something

So you can avoid, fire, avoid, fire some more, etc. It's pretty good against Cacodemons and Barons and the like, but naturally Revenants and Arch-viles have auto-damage so it doesn't help a lot there. I wouldn't mix high power pistols with it: PB-mixing is probably your best bet, however (just don't assemble it together). MGK is made for the more active pistol player who doesn't like "sneaking around the sides and corner shooting and doing other sorts of blind fire tricks," so maybe it's not the build for you if you happen to enjoy that kind of stuff.

Personally, my pistol build has been as follows:

SoG(x3) -> EE -> SoB -> Fin(x2) -> WK -> SoB(x2) -> WK

It can change depending on mods after level 5, but I play for a fully-moddable single pistol for maximum knockback effect. No DG, or MGK, just pure single-shot goodness. If you DO play DG, you shouldn't get so much knockback that you end up wasting bullets, meaning fewer SoB and probably some Rel.

Thanks for the input. After reading all that I got some pretty cool insights on how MGK should be used and I'm going to try a really cookie-cutter SoG SoG DG HR HR DM MGK build with two plain pistols. If I'm right there shouldn't be any problems after I get MGK, but I might have to get a little lucky until that point. That tip about not assembling the mods leaving you with a PB pistol hadn't occurred to me. I just thought it would not use it or something.

*** UPDATE ***

just tried pressing 'n', it won't let you unless you have WK. makes sense, but still, having a pistol with just one power mod on it is better than a High Power Pistol.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 10:18 by bleak »
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Re: Assemblies thoughts
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2011, 04:23 »

I haven't played with all the assemblies yet, but I have used quite a few (I save-scummed the armoury level quite a few times to check out how common the mods gained were). I'm a cheater I know, but it wasn't so much to cheat as to check out the new stuff. To tell you the truth, I've never played games of DoomRL where mods were so common as now. I've legitimately found 6 firestorm packs over probably 15 games. That's more than I found in 6 months of 0.9.9.1 :).

Note: some assemblies are obviously build and game/challenge dependant. I've noted this where I can. These are only my views, are probably wrong, and only represent my thoughts on the game. Assemblies really aren't required to win as it is, just normal modding will do it. To tell you the truth, un-modded knives and fists will do it, so assemblies are just bonuses. Some let you try new things and some are just plain good. Some let you waste your mod packs or are redundant anyway. This is my list in a vague order of kickarse-ness. Some are about equal on the list, so will be numbered the same. Assemblies requiring whizzkid levels tend to rate lower because they're build dependant.

So here's my review of mods used or wanted to use thus-far:

#1 Tactical Armour and Boots. The pick of the bunch, easily. One or the other are guaranteed in a normal game (chained court mods) and they are incredibly useful. The boots especially, I make them first every time. Both together are lovely. They save space, they regen and they make you run very quickly. Think 0.45 secs a move when running, WITHOUT hellrunner, and even quicker with it. They're VERY good. They make blademaster as good as vampyre for melee runs, fireangel as good (or maybe better) than AotD for shotty runs and they make vampyre absurdly good for anything. Try a fireangel build in a normal game, where a big tactic is just running closer and closer to the enemy, blasting them to pieces with your shotty all the while. Then out comes  the missile launcher :)

#2 Speedloader Pistols. Awesome, just awesome. Makes pistols all the better for any build, although MGK or finesse+tech modded pistols may still be better. They just add more options for using pistols as your main weapon with a lot more builds. Great addition to the game that doesn't penalise you for trying something out.

#2 Power armour. I still haven't gotten a nano-mod at the time I could have used this, but it sounds friggin amazing. Slightly better regen'ing Angelic Armour with no WK requirements or anything annoying. It just sounds like great armour all round. Who can't wait ~20 turns between encounters to keep strength 8 armour? You could ditch the rest of your armour inventory and still feel OK (except your tactical armour, always keep the tactical armour).

#3 Stormbolter Pistol. I haven't used it, but I certainly plan to. It's not as though 10mm ammo is exactly rare, and the extra damage would be handy. I actually got two firestorm mods in a AoB game, and so couldn't use them, but I would have absolutely loved to make a pair of these and build for dualgunner. A berserker marine of Armok would be insane fun to play as, just to go all WH40k in DoomRL :). The guns are rare and build dependant (for WK), but they look very, very good. Twin wielded, fire-storm modded, "high-power chaingun" kind of good :D

#3 Assault Cannon. A nice gun, but how nice? The best chaingun assembly is how nice. But it still fires bullets and not plasma, so if you want to not rely on plasma you can use it. It's nice. Especially if you're making a non-ammo-chain (and non-TH) build. Otherwise the mods would be better on a plasma rifle or a host of other things.

#4 Nano-fibre armour. It's good in that it's a reasonably reliable strength 3 onyx armour. It's bad in that it makes you move slowly. And there's usually a few more vital things to do with power mods than debuff your armour. It's probably one of the better options, but I'm getting too used to the speed of tactical armour, and two power modded red armours will probably be better for you in the long run. Good with tough as nails or for AoLT, otherwise I'll be power-modding something else.

#4 Elephant gun. Nice for any shotgun related build or play-style. If you've got shottyman and a couple of power mods then make one. It's a very-long-range, high-spread scouting tool. Nice-ish damage close up, but a DB is probably better. I'd still be tempted to bung one power-mod on the DB, and one on my combat shotty and skip the elephant gun entirely. I guess I'm a bit old fashioned though. Oh, and is it just me, or do shotguns of all sorts have a little more knockback now? My combat shotgun pushes quite a bit of stuff back now, even without a power mod......

#5 Gatling gun. Nice, and lets you try out a bullet led rapid fire run. But there's a guarantee of plasma rifles anyway (and fairly early on in the game usually) along with the ammo to go with them. If you get bulks very early I'd try it, but really a plasma rifle still beats it with damage output AND damage type, and is as accurate with just one agility mod.

#5 Energy Pistol. It deals plasma damage and never misses (assuming you build it the RIGHT way, sniper mod first). If you're a pistol user you'll love it. Especially if you can find a blaster or other unique pistol (or any assembled pistols). Otherwise I can think of other weapons I'd be putting a sniper mod on. If you're building a pistol build, its the second best pistol assembly, so build one as soon as you can.

#6 Plasmatic Shrapnel. I tend to do my shotgun runs as AotD but I am starting to lean towards fireangel.  You're almost an AotD soldier with this but still get all the fireangel benefits. As fireangel under AoS this is the mutts nuts. For everything else it's just a bonus. I mean, it's a nano mod. What can't you use it on that makes you superman, with any build? Good, but only useful for AoS runs when you're trying out build ideas, and far too random to rely on.

#7 VBFG9000. The extra splash is good (as it sets off even more secondary explosions) and the regen in ammo is great. But it's one shot per clip. Think of it more like a non-damaging mini-nuke once per level. Start level, fire gun, wipe out everything in area and then be happy in the knowledge that you've got a nice little safe zone. By the next floor it should have regenned enough ammo to rinse and repeat.

#8 Tactical Rocket Launcher. It's a sweet weapon, it really is. But so's a missile launcher. Except a missile launcher does more damage, is more accurate and can still be modded up the wazoo. If you don't get the missile launcher and backpack from The Wall, then make one of these. It's your only semi-reliable option for rockets in a100 games if you don't find a ML early, and bulk packs are pretty common. Otherwise a totally redundant weapon that is outclassed in every field by a guaranteed weapon from a quite nice special level.

#9 Double Chainsaw. You need WK and I very rarely take that on melee runs. It's a good weapon, and it even swings quite quickly with the 2x finesse levels, but you'd have to build for it and hope you get the power mods. The longinus spear is guaranteed later in the game and a bulk-modded chainsaw will see you through up to that point. If you get the mods and want to go slicy on a gunning run, then for sure. Otherwise I guess it's really an a100 or "no-special-levels-allowed" option.

#9 Assault Rifle. I've made this just for a laugh in an ammo-chain run to use up my spare agility mods. It does dish out a good whack of damage with enough levels of triggerhappy, but is it really needed? Maybe in an AoLT without ammo-chain, but other than that I can't see the use. Everything with a level or two of WK and mods dishes out damage anyway, and with triggerhappy being necessary to make it properly powerful you'll probably be going for ammo-chain as it is. And modded ammo-chain plasma rifles rock anyway.........

#10 High power weapon. Nope, don't like it. I can't think of a single weapon that a power or bulk by themselves wouldn't be more useful on. If I need more DPS I'll use a tech-mod or build for it. Maybe good as a backup plasma rifle or BFG, especially if I'm rolling in mods on an ammo-chain run and am just mucking about. But really, you could mod something else up that's more useful, and with WK in ammochain, most guns come out better than this anyway. I guess as a last ditch "I need a better weapon NOW!" option, but it's still kind of cludgy.

#10 Micro Launcher. It takes a perfectly good weapon and makes it a bit crappier. One tech mod makes a rocket launcher better, but two makes it crap. Who knows why? It does have it's good points (fast reload and smaller splash) but it comes with bad points as well(less damage and smaller splash). The bad outweigh the good, by quite a lot in my mind. Some walls (The Vaults spring to mind) also become indestructable to this weapon as well. This, combined with the fact that the rocket launcher is guaranteed in The Arena - which you then take to The Wall and get a guaranteed missile launcher, makes this a totally redundant weapon. The missile launcher out-classes it in every way(and comes with a free Doom-guy(tm) backpack), and a normal launcher is probably better anyway. Especially with just 1 tech/bulk/power or agility mod. Anything other than two tech mods really.......

#Infinity. Really, everything else on the assembly list is just gravy. I don't care if you get the Biggest Fucking Gun. With two levels of WK and all those mods you could mod up a kit that would make you industructable anyway. I'm not saying master assemblies aren't cool, you just don't need them. A sniper, nano or firestorm mod often turns whatever weapon or armour you put it on into end game material without any other mods at all. Master assemblies are like that, but more so.


I really hope we get more basic assemblies. The advanced and master ones are great, but they require at least 2-3 levels of experience to try out these new options. And going for levels in whizzkid has a tendency to draw people towards ammo-chain. Many of the assemblies also lend themselves very well to either triggerhappy or not requiring ammo under chainfire mode. Which makes a common problem in DoomRL (ammo-chain being essentially easy mode) even worse, where you're halfway to the master-trait just so you can try out all the new whizzbang things in 0.9.9.2.  I know you don't HAVE to go for MAc, and the new assemblies offer a lot of new options to not go the modded-plasma-rifle route, but it does make a good thing even better. A lot better actually, and it was already the best. Yep, ammo-chain is now undeniably THE BEST, EASIEST, CHEESY BUILD EVER! NO-ONE CAN DENY IT! EVER!!!!!!............

cough.....

My rant is over, I hope you read through all that gibberish. You don't have to agree, they're just my thoughts....


« Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 05:19 by Sambojin »
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Re: Assemblies thoughts
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2011, 07:45 »

It's like somebody took all the thoughts I couldn't be bothered to type ... and then typed them! :D

Only thing I feel like adding is that having so many assemblies require the nano mod explicitly is really annoying for completionist players or even those who just want to try a few out. Waiting for a specific unique to spawn takes forever +1 and the one place it can appear regularly often rewards something less helpful and just as often doesn't appear in a given game at all.
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Game Hunter

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Re: Assemblies thoughts
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2011, 12:19 »

You can rate them how you like, but the ability to GET certain mods for these weapons heavily affects how I tend to rate them in terms of usability. The tactical gear is among my favorite (especially if TRL gets the power boost it so rightfully deserves) and, in general, the "best" stuff IMO is also that which you can depend on getting in a given game. That said, I should probably point out stuff you appear to misunderstand:

- TA/TB set will get you to 0.64 without HR, 0.45 WITH HR. This is a simple calculation: +20% MS boost for each, so 1.0-(1.0*0.2) = 0.8-(0.8*0.2) = 0.64. HR2 adds another 30%, which brings us to 0.64-(0.64*0.7)=0.45 (roughly). This isn't to say that it isn't still good, but that would be OP the way you mention it. The only potential issue with TA/TB is that they can still deteriorate to nothing, so you still need to be careful walking large expanses of lava or into VRM packs.

- Yeah, storm bolter really has great potential, and the only downside is the lack of accuracy (meaning if you didn't invest in EE yet, you'll have to now). On the other hand bullets are the lifeblood of pistols and using six (or twelve!!) at a time can really eat away at the stocks. No Ammochain for them, either.

- Elephant gun as the same spread and range as the normal shotgun, as far as I can tell: the only buff here is the damage, though it is quite nice. Point for point, it deals the same amount as an unmodded double per shell, but can be used much more effectively at a distance. Perfect for MAD, who won't be modding past basic anyway.

- Energy pistol's ability to wall-bust is more than enough for me to rate this my favorite pistol assembly, though speedloader is a close second given how easily you can build it. The reloading problem is only a problem early (okay, AND Arach caves), when you can often be caught empty, so I tend to keep it but swap for better modding later. Energy pistol would be the ideal evolution.

- TRL can reload all of its rockets in a single go (and costing only one reload time at that), giving it a bit of an edge. Personally I think of it as a wall-buster because its explosions allow for far more accurate destruction.

- Double chainsaw has a rather important use: taking out UC in a non-melee game. It's probably what you'll get in A100 if you play that melee. I noticed you didn't really mention the chainsword, which has great application for A100 and Strongman Silver/Gold.

- Assault rifle is great because the only traits you need to really use it are SoB/TH (and WK to make it). Furthermore, you can then invest in defensive traits (particularly TaN) because you don't need Ammochain. Finally, needing three agility mods, it's among the most guaranteed assemblies in the game, so you can actually create a build around it. I like it a lot, and the chainfire makes up for the lack of bullets anyway.

- Micro launcher CAN bust walls (same with TRL). Since it deals less damage, it won't necessarily do so in a single hit and may take a few instead. I've used micro launcher at the Vaults and it works fine.

We discussed changing the requirement of WK before, and I guess we could still talk about it (if a lot of people tend even more toward MAc because of assemblies). On harder difficulties, though, you tend to get enough levels so that adding three to get to WK isn't a pain (considering Finesse is ALWAYS awesome), not to mention a lot of people aiming for Juggler and getting you halfway there.

Anyway, there are new assemblies coming out in the next version from what I can tell. Maybe it'll change your mind on your top 10.
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Re: Assemblies thoughts
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2011, 13:22 »

Yep, ammo-chain is now undeniably THE BEST, EASIEST, CHEESY BUILD EVER! NO-ONE CAN DENY IT! EVER!!!!!!............
Not to get off topic, but I respectfully disagree. Maybe I play too much Ao100, but I'll take SoBx3 and Intx2 over ammo-chain almost any game (not sure which I prefer during AoMC though). Sure infinite ammo is nice, but it blocks EE and SoG. During my average Ao100 game with a pistol I'll have a firing speed of .17 and +6 damage, which can be essential for getting multiple enemies out of your field of vision with minimal retaliation. I think that there is generally enough ammo around until level ~30 or so, so ammochain doesn't feel that great for standard games. It all depends on your play style though, so your mileage may vary.
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Sambojin

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Re: Assemblies thoughts
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2011, 20:28 »

Quote
- TA/TB set will get you to 0.64 without HR, 0.45 WITH HR. This is a simple calculation: +20% MS boost for each, so 1.0-(1.0*0.2) = 0.8-(0.8*0.2) = 0.64. HR2 adds another 30%, which brings us to 0.64-(0.64*0.7)=0.45 (roughly). This isn't to say that it isn't still good, but that would be OP the way you mention it. The only potential issue with TA/TB is that they can still deteriorate to nothing, so you still need to be careful walking large expanses of lava or into VRM packs.

Yeah, I probably should have emphasised the run very quickly part of the post. I tend to do a fair few shotgun and melee runs, so I'm running quite a bit. I'm pretty sure from memory that the 0.45secs a move while running still holds. I'm not sure if it all goes multiplicative with HR levels. I'm doing an AoMr run now (aiming for MGK) so I'll post a definate figure for tactical boots and armour whilst running soon. 0.31secs a move whilst running with tactical boots, tactical armour and 2 levels of HR.

I guess the rest of what you say is pretty much correct and I may have rated a few things too highly compared to their extreme rareness and WK requirements. I chucked a post together here of what we almost definately get through the game here: http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,3741.msg33120.html#23

It makes some assemblies look all the better and some worse really. The info could be slightly wrong and depends on special levels spawning. It's just there to highlight what could seem like an average assembly to be too awesome and reliable as others put their thoughts up. I know that you know this, but it could be handy for other people thinking that 3 agility mods and a power mod should equal a super-mega-death-cannon. I still think a normal rocket launcher with any one mod is better than the micro launcher though. And a missile launcher is better than a TRL even without the multi-reload. YMMV


edit: Errrmmm, its 0.31 seconds a move while running. That's with tactical armour, tactical boots, two levels of hellrunner and with run on. The maths works normally (being multiplicative and not subtractive or any other strange stuff). Still, pretty fast in my opinion. Makes the elephant gun look quite good as a replacement for a combat shotgun for a fireangel run. And I guess the elephant gun won't actually fire any further than a normal shotgun (the dropoff % still hits zero at the same time). I wasn't thinking. It still will have a bit more damage until it hits zero though.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 22:29 by Sambojin »
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Re: Assemblies thoughts
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2011, 22:21 »

I haven't seen a single nano mod in any of the games I've played, so I've not had a chance to play with any of the nano assemblies. A constant favorite of mine has quickly become the tactical set due to the ease it can be constructed, but the assault rifle has been a godsend. I dunno how much fun I've had in The Mortuary with MAc + Assault Rifle + Chainfire. Low fire time, amazing accuracy, and a never ending stream of bullets has been amazing. Totally makes up for the lack of EE, and the damage is great.

I wish there were some assemblies for the plasma rifles, aside from the any ranged weapon ones.
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Re: Assemblies thoughts
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2011, 23:10 »

I'd love to see more assemblies.

Especially more that don't need that damn Nano pack. All five Master assemblies, four Advanced assemblies, and even a Basic assembly use it. That's ridiculous.

Further thoughts:

1. I think there should be one Basic assembly for each basic weapon - Plasma Rifle, Combat Shotgun, and Double Shotgun are missing them, although admittedly I'm not sure exactly what could be done with the shotguns.

2. Technical mods are surprisingly underutilized. Only two Basic, one Advanced, and two Master assemblies use them. Power, Bulk, and Agility are on just about everything, though.
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Re: Assemblies thoughts
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2011, 23:15 »

Technical mods could replace one or two of those nano packs if you remove the regen from the result.
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Re: Assemblies thoughts
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2011, 01:29 »

2. Technical mods are surprisingly underutilized.

Yes - I've been bothered by this one for a few versions now. Seems I rarely ever pick this one up even though as a concept - a 'technical' mod should probably yield the most promising results.

I say 3 technical mods should = a Nano pack!

EDIT: and 3 power = firestorm
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 01:35 by MaiZure »
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gunofdis

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Re: Assemblies thoughts
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2011, 05:48 »

The only real use I've ever had for high power:  in AoMC, getting MGK and dual wielding  2 high power pistols (3 ammo ones) will kill anything less than an archvile before having to reload.
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Re: Assemblies thoughts
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2011, 12:21 »

The only real use I've ever had for high power:  in AoMC, getting MGK and dual wielding  2 high power pistols (3 ammo ones) will kill anything less than an archvile before having to reload.
I'd think you'd still have some reload issues against the Cyberdemon and large packs unless you either invested in Reloader or also carried a pair of Speedloader pistols.

The enemies you won't kill before reloading are also the ones you really want to kill before reloading.

The best use I can come up with for High Power is the Railgun (if the wiki's correct in saying it works) or an Ammochain build Plasma Rifle - although I'd be tempted to use Agility and Power instead since I'd already have at least one level of WK.
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Re: Assemblies thoughts
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2011, 06:06 »

Cybie drops in 6 reloads on N!, 5 on UV, 4 on HMP and HNTR,  3 on ITYTD.  Cybie also can't hit you because you have dodgemaster and can be presumed to not be braindead.  If you're feeling cautious, you can easily duck behind a wall to reload.
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