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[Fanta Hege]

Now this is something thats been bugging me a very long time and I personaly think should be tweaked;

Dodging and dodge chances.

Now as you all know, side stepping, zig zagging, are suppoused to lower the chance to get hit when moving towards enemies.
Run state gives it a high increase, Hellrunner increases this dodge chance even further, dodgemaster ensures them.

But yet it feels broken.


Try dodge without run state, even against one former human. See what happens, you're most likely gona get loaded by its full clip. Even with a trait of hellrunner, you're most likely going to get hit 5/6 of the clip of the former.

Then put on run state, what do you know, all of those shots miss. Hell even without actually dodging, half of them are gona miss.
The big secret of survival, run state. Easily available, easily reliable. And it feels lame.
It also feels wrong how you can't dodge a basic monsters fireing without investing on an advanced trait or using your run state immidiatly.
It feels extreemly reduntant to constantly rely on the run state, specialy in the early game.

This also reflects on the berserk state, and how those chaingunners in chained court suddenly turn so much more deadlier without your run state if you go too far from your precious globes or how those itty bitty spiders end up burning more healthkits on a cave when you engage them during berserk rather than running.

I personaly think there should be a bit of a need to rebalance thise dodge chances, to really check more on the actual "where are you moving" rather than "what is your state when moving". Have more base dodge and less dodge from the run state. Make the run less like "I'm now a half ghost" button.

[thelaptop]

One thing: it is not true that walking in any particular direction will allow you to dodge bullets.  You have to move in a direction that is perpendicular to the line of fire for the dodge effect to kick in.

When you are running, you have a speed boost, among other things.  Logic dictates that when running, you should dodge bullets better than say if you were just walking around trying to dodge them.  Also, it depends on which difficulty you are playing on: higher difficulties see monsters having additional scores to accuracy, which means that if you movement is flawed, they have a higher chance of hitting you.

So I don't quite understand what you mean by needing to rebalance.

[Thomas]

I found this odd, because I generally get a lot of pretty lucky dodges in Hell's Arena and the cyberdemon fight.

I think the thing is that he tested with former humans, which will almost never have their bullets sidestepped. I just tested and even on HNTR they were shooting right at me as I tried to dodge (although sometimes the bullets would just pass right through because they suck at actually hitting their target)

Then I went down to level 2 and tried on the imps. Even at close range where they get accuracy buffs, I was dodging almost all of their shots without running mode.

Whenever I have running mode on and I'm standing still, I generally think of it as strafing around in a tight circle (You're standing in a tile big enough to house a cyberdemon) and that's why shots will occaisionally pass through you.

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Here's the algorithm in question, in pseudocode:

Code: [Select]

function get_dodge_chance : byte;
begin
  miss_chance := missile.dodge_chance + missile.dodge_factor
                 * distance( attacker.position, defender.position );

  if tactic = running then miss_chance += 20;
  if first_dodge and master_dodge then Exit(100);

  miss_chance += 100-defender.movetime;
  Exit( Clamp( miss_chance , 0, 95 ) );
end;

As we see, running increases the chance by only 20%, because the movetime is basic movetime (unaffected by neither equipment nor running state, but affected by hellrunner).

[Fanta Hege]

When you are running, you have a speed boost, among other things.  Logic dictates that when running, you should dodge bullets better than say if you were just walking around trying to dodge them.  Also, it depends on which difficulty you are playing on: higher difficulties see monsters having additional scores to accuracy, which means that if you movement is flawed, they have a higher chance of hitting you.

So I don't quite understand what you mean by needing to rebalance.

Ofcourse its logical, but it feels bit broken in the actualy game sense way, considering you really don't seem to be able to get much benefit from succesful side steppings without it or DM. I'm not really saying it should be a completele rebalance, but atleast a slight tweak so you would have a slightly bit more chance to get a succesful dodge without run state aswell and actually give bit more chance to to save the run for better uses than constantly be running, like it feels in higher difficulties at the moment.

I found this odd, because I generally get a lot of pretty lucky dodges in Hell's Arena and the cyberdemon fight.

I think the thing is that he tested with former humans, which will almost never have their bullets sidestepped. I just tested and even on HNTR they were shooting right at me as I tried to dodge (although sometimes the bullets would just pass right through because they suck at actually hitting their target)

Then I went down to level 2 and tried on the imps. Even at close range where they get accuracy buffs, I was dodging almost all of their shots without running mode.

Whenever I have running mode on and I'm standing still, I generally think of it as strafing around in a tight circle (You're standing in a tile big enough to house a cyberdemon) and that's why shots will occaisionally pass through you.

Former humans are quite oddity, I'm suprised you've been able to dodge imps, in UV/N they feel like some sort of darn snipers. Mancubi and Cacodemons do seem to miss a lot more often than others from what I've experienced, whenever its run or not.



Though I'm suprised its only 20% increase, it feels so much larger in actual game.

Maybe I'm just crazy then.

[Thomas]

Keep in mind that if I'm reading that psuedocode right, 20% chance means an additive increase. (something like 50% to 70%) 70% will always feel at least 3 times as reliable as 50%.

Pretty much anything that fires fireballs can be dodged quite easily (at long range, or at short range while running) but imps, hell knights and barons tend to be a bit more accurate. If the wiki is to be believed, mancubi actually have a 0% chance to hit a moving target.

[Ander Hammer]

Think of how many builds wouldn't be possible if you couldn't run.

Thomas - really? After getting killed from full a few times by mancubi, I stopped bothering trying to fight them, but if they're that easy to dodge...

[MaiZure]

I also think Mancubi are fairly easy to dodge - however it's usually the splash damage that kills me, not the fireball itself. Dodging doesn't help that.