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Author Topic: Assemblies and game balance  (Read 8817 times)

Sambojin

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Re: Assemblies and game balance
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2011, 21:56 »

Actually, just so I've actually made some sort of input to the discussion (instead of just whinging) how would people think of a modified "High Power" weapon? As has been suggested it could perhaps be modded to 3/4 ammo capacity instead of half. But why not let it be put on shotguns? (with no ammo capacity limitations). With the effect of either +1 die of damage (9d3 single, 9d3x3 double, 8d3 combat) or quicker reload for single/double or more ammo capacity for combats. Then 3/4 the ammo capacity (minimum of one) and let them use "bullet damage" instead of "shrapnel damage".

It'd make a good basic assembly, that just about everyone would want at some time or rather, shotty user, pistols or chaingun/plasma gun. It might be a little over-powered, but some testing would tell. It also allows the "High Powered Weapon" assembly become an excellent jack-of-all-trades assembly, rather than the "nerf my weapon" assembly it is now.

For the "guaranteed-ness" of the assembly, it'd only be "definitely" available from the mortuary onward. Which is about the the time shotguns start becoming iffy to use as weapons for non-AotD builds. Shotguns are great up to that point, after that their use can start tapering off compared to other weapons (probably earlier really). You can get lucky and get it early, or drop into the Mortuary, phase, grab your mod and get the hell out of there. And then be able to shotty your way through end-game even without AotD or fireangel builds. Sounds good to me.

I'll stat it up in the "Request for Features" forum.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 21:58 by Sambojin »
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Tuomari Jim

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Re: Assemblies and game balance
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2011, 00:37 »

how would people think of a modified "High Power" weapon? As has been suggested it could perhaps be modded to 3/4 ammo capacity instead of half. But why not let it be put on shotguns? (with no ammo capacity limitations). With the effect of either +1 die of damage (9d3 single, 9d3x3 double, 8d3 combat) or quicker reload for single/double or more ammo capacity for combats.

You do realize that what you're suggesting isn't actually any better than simply adding a single power mod OR a single bulk mod to a shotgun? That is, unless I misunderstood something about your suggestion, because assemblies are by default supposed to be more than the sum of its parts, not less.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 00:39 by Tuomari Jim »
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Deathwind

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Re: Assemblies and game balance
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2011, 01:07 »

They tested high power shotguns and found that they were too powerful so they remove the option.
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ZZ

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Re: Assemblies and game balance
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2011, 03:29 »

High Power weapon is 'nerf my weapon' assembly? I actually thought that it was the most OP assembly out of all basics, because of how powerful and accessible high-power plasma is. Then I figured out that 3 power mods are not very rare, so it's main use is on the exotics, which do not accept more than one mod, so this basic assembly makes them do wonders. High power blaster, high power nuclear plasma rifle, high power laser rifle - they all are too much stronger than their unmodded counterparts.

And also, for normal run 'semi-guaranteed' is equal to 'guaranteed'. Since the spawn rate of normal mods is quite high, every assembly that doesn't use unique or exotic mod is semi-guaranteed without visiting any special level. Of course, if the required mods do not show up, the assembly can't be forged, but the probability of this is lower than the probability that your doomguy will successfully clear the Mortuary.
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Ander Hammer

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Re: Assemblies and game balance
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2011, 01:37 »

I never understood why an assembly that takes a bulk mod is the only one in the game that reduces magazine size.
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Re: Assemblies and game balance
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2011, 07:33 »

Then I figured out that 3 power mods are not very rare, so it's main use is on the exotics, which do not accept more than one mod, so this basic assembly makes them do wonders.

Exotics can be modded just an much as any common piece of equipment (that is, WK 0/1/2 allows 1/3/5). So yeah, high power assembly is really just as lame as everyone thinks it is. I'm pretty sure if the clip size reduction wasn't 50% but more like, say, 25%, THEN this would get some actual use. The only time I really consider it is for chainguns, because their damage doesn't last at all on UV, yet you'll need to carry one around in case the cells run low.
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Shoop da Whoop

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Re: Assemblies and game balance
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2011, 09:18 »

Well, my little proposition about WK.
You can add to weapon as much mods as you wish (up to 5), but without WK only one (first) will work, WK1 - three of them, WK2 - whole five.
Thus, we get assemblies that do not need WK anymore.
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Tuomari Jim

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Re: Assemblies and game balance
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2011, 10:30 »

Well, my little proposition about WK.
You can add to weapon as much mods as you wish (up to 5), but without WK only one (first) will work, WK1 - three of them, WK2 - whole five.
Thus, we get assemblies that do not need WK anymore.

I'm feeling this one.
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DeathDealer

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Re: Assemblies and game balance
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2011, 12:52 »

Well, my little proposition about WK.
You can add to weapon as much mods as you wish (up to 5), but without WK only one (first) will work, WK1 - three of them, WK2 - whole five.
Thus, we get assemblies that do not need WK anymore.

Agreed, this is a good idea.
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Sambojin

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Re: Assemblies and game balance
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2011, 22:33 »

Yeah, the no WK requirements for assemblies is a good one. Still makes it a powerful advanced trait (so you can use basic modding heavily) without screwing the other builds out of assemblies.

On the High-Power Shotgun part, the main point was using "bullet damage" (is it just physical damage?) instead of "shrapnel damage". That's a 100% effectiveness of enemy armour instead of a 200% effectiveness against your weapon. Think of it more as armour piercing shotgun rounds, yet not as good as plasma. The shotgun itself wouldn't be much more powerful against basic grunts, but it would be quite a bit more effective against armoured foes. It wouldn't be a lot, mostly just a few more points of damage per shot, but just enough to take shotguns further into the game vs the enemies you're likely to meet. And a lot more reliable against those situations where a BoH picks up a red armour and you have to blast away all day to kill it. Not to mention the Shambler and its regeneration.

Point noted on exotics and HPW. On basic weapons it tends to nerf them, on exotics it's golden.
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Nameless

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Re: Assemblies and game balance
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2011, 23:31 »

Removing the WK requirement for creating assemblies would (depending on how/if assemblies are balance) risk WK becoming redundant in a large number of runs. Imagine spending traits to create a super weapon, then clearing Hell's Armory and realising that you could have just invested in Eagle Eye and made a Assault Cannon anyway. Not so great.

Also. High power weapons are awesome, if you use them correctly. Such as:
* Picking off enemies before they can retaliate, especially with Int(2).
* AoMC, where you need less ammo overall but killing an endgame enemy one turn later could wipe you out.
* Putting some serious hurt on a mob, then using Juggler to swap back a shotgun or whatever else to finish them off.
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Tuomari Jim

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Re: Assemblies and game balance
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2011, 01:50 »

On the High-Power Shotgun part, the main point was using "bullet damage" (is it just physical damage?) instead of "shrapnel damage". That's a 100% effectiveness of enemy armour instead of a 200% effectiveness against your weapon. Think of it more as armour piercing shotgun rounds, yet not as good as plasma. The shotgun itself wouldn't be much more powerful against basic grunts, but it would be quite a bit more effective against armoured foes. It wouldn't be a lot, mostly just a few more points of damage per shot, but just enough to take shotguns further into the game vs the enemies you're likely to meet. And a lot more reliable against those situations where a BoH picks up a red armour and you have to blast away all day to kill it. Not to mention the Shambler and its regeneration.

Oh, right, now I see.

Removing the WK requirement for creating assemblies would (depending on how/if assemblies are balance) risk WK becoming redundant in a large number of runs. Imagine spending traits to create a super weapon, then clearing Hell's Armory and realising that you could have just invested in Eagle Eye and made a Assault Cannon anyway. Not so great.

It's still IMHO infinitely preferable to the current situation, where whizkid is way overpowered. People who want to get ammochain would still pick a level of whizkid, but the choice would be less obvious because there would be less incentive to go in that direction.

Also. High power weapons are awesome, if you use them correctly. Such as:
* Picking off enemies before they can retaliate, especially with Int(2).
* AoMC, where you need less ammo overall but killing an endgame enemy one turn later could wipe you out.
* Putting some serious hurt on a mob, then using Juggler to swap back a shotgun or whatever else to finish them off.

Oh, quite. High power weapon is the only weapon assembly that I use in almost all of my runs. Agility modpacks are almost invariably used to assemble the tactical boots and spare bulk modpacks are mainly used either on my armor or the BFG, depending on the situation.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 01:56 by Tuomari Jim »
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tiw

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Re: Assemblies and game balance
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2011, 11:20 »

I don't see the point in removing awfully overpowered assemblies (considering getting ridiculously lucky in a roguelike is also a large part of enjoyment of the game), when shifting the requirements could simply fare better. Maybe nanomanufacture ammo could require a bulk mod instead of three and also require a technical and firestorm pack. Biggest Fucking Gun could do without requiring a nanopack if sniper is also required, or simply give it nanomanufacture ammo's old requirements.
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Nameless

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Re: Assemblies and game balance
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2011, 16:45 »

I don't see the point in removing awfully overpowered assemblies (considering getting ridiculously lucky in a roguelike is also a large part of enjoyment of the game), when shifting the requirements could simply fare better. Maybe nanomanufacture ammo could require a bulk mod instead of three and also require a technical and firestorm pack. Biggest Fucking Gun could do without requiring a nanopack if sniper is also required, or simply give it nanomanufacture ammo's old requirements.
I felt a great disturbance in the game balance, as if millions of completionists cried out in terror and were suddenly frustrated.
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