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Author Topic: Ammochain tweak  (Read 6491 times)

Const

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Ammochain tweak
« on: March 31, 2011, 09:58 »

How it now works: "I win" button.

How to fix it: change it's requirements to Whizkid 1 + reloader 3. It makes sense: one of this trait benefits is "zero time reload", and it would be more balanced trait.

Any questions?
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grommile

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Re: Ammochain tweak
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2011, 11:33 »

Actually, the dependency on Whizkid is the single biggest reason why Ammochain is overpowered.

Now, Triggerhappy 1 and Reloader 3, sure, you might be on to somthing.
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DeathDealer

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Re: Ammochain tweak
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2011, 11:36 »

Actually, the dependency on Whizkid is the single biggest reason why Ammochain is overpowered.

Now, Triggerhappy 1 and Reloader 3, sure, you might be on to somthing.

I like it. Seconded.
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AStranger

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Re: Ammochain tweak
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2011, 13:18 »

I hate to be the party pooper, but I'd have to disagree. It could be because I only take ammochain during AoMC games, but I don't think ammochain is an 'I win' button during UV/N!. Personally I prefer a finite amount of shots with high accuracy/knockback than an infinite number of low-average accuracy shots. This probably has a lot to do with my play style and the amount of xp available during UV/N!, but I find there are situations that you absolutely need the next shot to connect and all the ammo in the world isn't going to help that. I can see how it's really good for HMP and below, but I'm biased that I think the traits should be designed solely for UV/N! in mind.

Even if ammochain was to be tweaked, I don't think reloader 3 is the way to go. Flavour-wise it makes a lot of sense, but in terms of game play it's pretty crippling. Currently if you rush to ammochain and start using it you have the power of seven traits in effect. In the same situation with reloader 3, you'd only have four traits in effect (Sobx2, TH and ammochain), the three levels of reloader become dead weight almost entirely.

If it had to be tweaked, I'd say have it block Iro instead of SoG. Possibly have it block HR instead. The SoG block seems kinda pointless, so I think a better balance would be blocking something useful to the player to make ammochain less enticing.
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Const

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Re: Ammochain tweak
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2011, 15:39 »

Actually, the dependency on Whizkid is the single biggest reason why Ammochain is overpowered.

Do you tried chaingun without SoaB?

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Now, Triggerhappy 1 and Reloader 3, sure, you might be on to somthing.

I say "Whizkid" only because Ammochain is the one trait which requires it (we have Cat's Eye for Triggerhappy).

It could be because I only take ammochain during AoMC games, but I don't think ammochain is an 'I win' button during UV/N!.

During UV - is (except challenges like AoI). During N!... Speed is vital in Nightmare, right?

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Personally I prefer a finite amount of shots with high accuracy/knockback than an infinite number of low-average accuracy shots.

Average accuracy? Perhaps, but agility mods could fix it. And, they are very fast strong shots, don't underestimate it.

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This probably has a lot to do with my play style and the amount of xp available during UV/N!, but I find there are situations that you absolutely need the next shot to connect and all the ammo in the world isn't going to help that.

BFG?

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Currently if you rush to ammochain and start using it you have the power of seven traits in effect. In the same situation with reloader 3, you'd only have four traits in effect

Your math is wrong. You says that rel3 is 3 traits, and rel3 + MAC in 1 trait? So, you says that rel3>rel3+MAC???
« Last Edit: March 31, 2011, 15:51 by Const »
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AStranger

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Re: Ammochain tweak
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2011, 16:14 »

Average accuracy? Perhaps, but agility mods could fix it. And, they are very fast strong shots, don't underestimate it.
I'd say a chaingun has low accuracy and a plasma rifle has average accuracy for clarification. With ammochain you are trading accuracy (blocks EE) for infinite ammo. This can be fixed with agility mods, but then you are sacrificing either damage or firing speed in the form of having less mod slots to work with. This can be good sometimes, but bad others. I just feel the bad situations out weigh the good.

BFG?
True, this one can be chalked up to my play style. I don't often find BFGs during Ao100, at least not early enough to really rely on. For normal games I don't always have juggler. In a game with the Halls of Carnage and juggler though, yeah, the BFG definitely works.

Your math is wrong. You says that rel3 is 3 traits, and rel3 + MAC in 1 trait? So, you says that rel3>rel3+MAC???
Actually my math is fine, but my explanation sucks. What I meant was that now when you have ammochain, a plasma rifle and you fire that plasma rifle, seven traits are coming into use (SoBx2, TH, Finx2, WK and ammochain). If the requirements were changed to SoBx2, TH, Relx3, then when you fire that same plasma rifle only four traits are being used (Sobx2, TH and ammochain). The three levels of reloader don't work with ammochain and any weapon reloader does work for don't work with ammochain. So reloader just becomes dead weight for the majority of the game.
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MaiZure

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Re: Ammochain tweak
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2011, 20:21 »

This is a heated topic in the supporter section of the forums since Ammochain is getting nerfed in the next version. However...

Actually, the dependency on Whizkid is the single biggest reason why Ammochain is overpowered.

I disagree. The single biggest reason Ammochain is overpowered is Ammochain itself - you have infinite ammo and can therefore inflict infinite damage while the trait selection determines how quickly and safely you can deal that damage out. Many of the solutions proposed address this core problem. We'll see what actually happens soon...
« Last Edit: March 31, 2011, 20:37 by MaiZure »
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Const

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Re: Ammochain tweak
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2011, 08:10 »

With ammochain you are trading accuracy (blocks EE) for infinite ammo.

Yes, lack of accuracy, but still power(SoaB), speed (Finesse) and mods. What to do after that? Take Ironman. With Iro(3), Ammochain and medpacks hoarding - you are immortal.

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This can be fixed with agility mods, but then you are sacrificing either damage or firing speed in the form of having less mod slots to work with.

Yes, but nothing is perfect. And, power mod - only 8% damage for plasma with SoaB 3, so it's not a big deal.

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This can be good sometimes, but bad others. I just feel the bad situations out weigh the good.

Don't see it. Single enemies = easy to kill, and multiple enemies = MAC shines (don't need to reload!)

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I don't often find BFGs during Ao100, at least not early enough to really rely on.

Yes Ao100 = no BFG, but - cells are a problem after dlevel 25 UV (without MAC, of course). No cells - useless plasma.

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If the requirements were changed to SoBx2, TH, Relx3, then when you fire that same plasma rifle only four traits are being used (Sobx2, TH and ammochain).

*Sigh* Again. If I have SoaB 3, Rel3, and no other traits, how much traits are being used?
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raekuul

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Re: Ammochain tweak
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2011, 08:57 »

Const, if you don't need to reload, then there's no benefit from reloader. Why is that such a hard concept to grasp?
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Game Hunter

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Re: Ammochain tweak
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2011, 09:28 »

This is one of the big things that beta testers have been discussing, although it'd be silly not to consider non-supporter input.  Here's the list I compiled regarding possible changes in order to balance out Ammochain:

- Apply no-ammo to targeted enemies only
--- Apply no-ammo to chainfire attacks only
--- Allow for chainfire to persist as you move (full -> warming -> initial per step, firing increases as normal)
- Ammo is infinite but reloading is required
- Ammo is finite but reloading is not required
- Ammo cost is reduced (somehow)
- Increase ammo capacity per inventory space
- Alter the prereqs/blocks on MAc
--- Blocks: Remove SoG, add HR/Iro
--- Prereqs: Remove WK/(SoB/Fin), add Rel/TH

This is by no means a full list of possibilities, but it's something to get the mind going.

As far as MAc works as a whole, even now, it's hard to make use of it in a N! game (sans AoMC). You get no defensive traits for it, no Int, and infinite ammo really isn't all that useful when you have respawning ammo carriers. For easier difficulties (say HMP or UV), it's still hard to get going but the payoff is well worth it, especially since you can spray into the dark and kill a decent amount that way. MAc becomes less useful on harder difficulties, where getting ammo becomes less and less of a problem, whereas killing enemies quickly is more and more important (and so EE would be a nice trait).

Another big consequence of MAc, however, is that you don't have to carry ANY ammo, save some rockets, and still blow through the game as normal. Plenty of space for spare armor, med-packs, even consumables you'd normally not have room for. This is potentially more important than the infinite ammo itself, and so I believe that any balancing should reflect this part moreso.

I don't know for sure, but guessing from how he talks about MAc is sounds like Const has used it only on the easiest difficulties (ITYTD/HNTR). And yeah, it's pretty much a win button there. You'd be surprised how much lacking accuracy can bite you back though. I can tell you that Ammochain does NOT shine against multiple enemies because of this...at least when multiple enemies are visible at the same time. Unless we're talking about a horde (and really, why would you set yourself up like that) reloading is rarely a problem once your traits are in order. Furthermore, a quick trait addition (Fin -> Jug) will allow you double capacity at no extra time, and if 80 cells aren't enough to handle a rough situation, I don't know what is.
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Const

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Re: Ammochain tweak
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2011, 04:50 »

MAc becomes less useful on harder difficulties, where getting ammo becomes less and less of a problem

How it's possible? Later game enemyes either don't carry ammo, or carry rockets, which are less useful. There are Arachs, but it's only 20 cells, and I need plasma to kill them. Where is ammo?

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I don't know for sure, but guessing from how he talks about MAc is sounds like Const has used it only on the easiest difficulties (ITYTD/HNTR).

Your guessing is wrong. Just finished UV standart, AoMC, AoLT, Ao100 and AoHaste, all with MAC.

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and if 80 cells aren't enough to handle a rough situation, I don't know what is.

Mortuary. 80 cells? Ha! MAC? Cleared it. Without BFG shots. UV. AoHaste game. You still thinks that it's not IDKFA trait?
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Nameless

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Re: Ammochain tweak
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2011, 06:29 »

Not that I've actually won N!, but I'll take an educated guess and say that ammmochain is much less useful there because a) you can abuse respawn to load up on ammo anyway and b) the faster / stronger enemies become much more difficult without damage or accuracy boosting traits. Even on UV, I would strongly argue that it's not overpowered and submit dozens of my own failed mortems as evidence to the point. There are some powerful tricks infinite ammo allows you, but no more than what you can get from properly utilising eg. Intuition 2 and DoomRL is still a difficult game with either of them.

Regarding nerfing it ... Taking out the 'infinite ammo' part would be render the trait basically useless. Reload time is barely an issue using rapidfire weapons, and there would be much easier ways to get around it. Trying to nerf it by forcing the player to reload from their portable hole wouldn't make much difference for the same reason. Changing the prereqs from Whizkid to Reloader would be effective, but ugly (useless traits). Blocking Iro instead of HR would be mildly effective and not ugly, but would make little difference for low-difficulty runs.

The idea of applying infinite ammo only to chainfire sounds pretty awesome; I would be all for this.
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Re: Ammochain tweak
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2011, 09:41 »

MAc becomes less useful on harder difficulties, where getting ammo becomes less and less of a problem
How it's possible? Later game enemyes either don't carry ammo, or carry rockets, which are less useful. There are Arachs, but it's only 20 cells, and I need plasma to kill them. Where is ammo?
True, VMR packs will give you rockets at best. There's plenty of shells and bullets lying around, though, since there are also packs of Viles with formers (which allows for respawning ammo) and will supply just about anything else you could need. Cells are the only commodity, although with EE you'll have a much greater efficiency with the cells you find. Arach caves are always a positive gain in this regard (assuming you survive them).

I apologize for assuming you played on easier difficulties: most players tend to believe in MAc's uberness because they haven't attempted to use it when the game's difficulty spikes. Of the challenges you mention, A100 and AoLT almost require MAc (unless you've got a melee backup or are lucky enough to find a regenerator), and in AoMC there's little reason NOT to choose it because the only disadvantage, accuracy, is removed. Congrats on those victories, too: you should consider posting victory mortems here so we can understand your experience playing the game.

Mortuary. 80 cells? Ha! MAC? Cleared it. Without BFG shots. UV. AoHaste game. You still thinks that it's not IDKFA trait?
Mortuary is an exception to the typical case of a "rough situation". You will not find a more ammo-consuming place in the entire game. With rockets and BFGs (read: w/o MAc) it's still very doable, especially if you picked up the missile launcher back at The Wall. On the other hand, 80 cells should deal with at least half an Arach cave (more than enough to find a place to reload), initial arena encounters, and big rooms of VMR (sans respawning), which is what I was alluding to.

Basically the point I'm trying to get at is that infinite ammo sounds really good on paper (and the inventory free-up is good always), but in practice you're sacrificing accuracy that can REALLY hurt later on. Originally when we discussed nerfing MAc I suggested that the real problem was not the trait but, rather, the guaranteed agility mods you find on the way down, thereby guaranteeing what I call the A2 Ammochain strategy. It's a little harder to pull off because of the new Chained Court layout but it's still too easy to do and does make it the rest of the game almost trivial. There are three ways to rectify this problem: change up the mods at CC (and maybe Armory), forbid modding with MAc (ie, block Fin/WK), or simply set a hard accuracy limit once you get MAc. Something else to think about, I guess.

At the moment we're looking into prereq. changes for MAc, similar to what you suggested, so we'll see how that goes.
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ZZ

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Re: Ammochain tweak
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2011, 12:45 »

Maybe don't block neither EE nor SoG after getting ammochain, but block HR and Iro, and add the following effect: when you fire any gun, your accuracy is +2. Always. No matter what you will add, what traits you will pick. The compensation - you can get Int2+MAc combo, which is quite powerful.
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Const

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Re: Ammochain tweak
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2011, 12:57 »


True, VMR packs will give you rockets at best. There's plenty of shells and bullets lying around, though, since there are also packs of Viles with formers (which allows for respawning ammo) and will supply just about anything else you could need.

But it means that I must use weaker weapons, when with Ammochain I can plasma everything. And rockets - they destroy a loot (not counting other disadvantages), so they need a much more skill, than Ammochain.

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most players tend to believe in MAc's uberness because they haven't attempted to use it when the game's difficulty spikes.

My is a contrary - I failed to win UV without the trait.

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Congrats on those victories, too: you should consider posting victory mortems here so we can understand your experience playing the game.

Only problem - I have too much victories to post. But now, I post my Runner Gold, so you can see it.

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Mortuary is an exception to the typical case of a "rough situation". You will not find a more ammo-consuming place in the entire game.

Later UV levels have similar problems - Viles becames common anyway.

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On the other hand, 80 cells should deal with at least half an Arach cave (more than enough to find a place to reload), initial arena encounters, and big rooms of VMR (sans respawning),

So? Ammochaiin well handles such situations, anyway.

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but in practice you're sacrificing accuracy that can REALLY hurt later on.

Still don't see it. With pack of monsters, accuracy becomes less important.  You can miss one monster but still hit other. And in later game - agility mods are common, so why not do some modding?

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Originally when we discussed nerfing MAc I suggested that the real problem was not the trait but, rather, the guaranteed agility mods you find on the way down,

Again, they are common. Don't finding a single agility mod  in a middle-game= bad luck, anyway.
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