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Author Topic: Ammochain  (Read 5308 times)

drugon

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Ammochain
« on: May 07, 2011, 18:13 »

I'm thinking that this is too strong master trait. Maybe it should work only in Chainfire mode and Chainfire mode can be started only if there is at least one bullet in magazine even with Ammochain?
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thelaptop

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Re: Ammochain
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2011, 20:31 »

Hi, AmmoChain has recently been modified to address some of the overpoweredness.  Given the current trait requirements, MAC is no longer an extremely fast-firing ammo-less attack of pure carnage.

While MAC is indeed very strong in the past given that Finx2 and WK are requirements (making that A2 plasma rifle pure pwnage), the requirements of Relx2 now instead has made this ber combination a little more delayed (at least clev 10 instead of clev 5).

It will be interesting to hear your views on where you had used MAC (e.g. difficulty levels, specific challenges), since under different circumstances, MAC may prove to be ridiculously overpowered, but in some others, it might just be barely enough.
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Battleguy

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Re: Ammochain
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2011, 00:39 »

I think the nerf to ammochain wasn't that bad, seeing as you can now get reloader at the start, to give you more of a chance.
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drugon

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Re: Ammochain
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2011, 02:09 »

thelaptop
What is MAC?
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Re: Ammochain
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2011, 02:16 »

thelaptop
What is MAC?

Mastertrait AmmoChain

It's strong when its allowed to get into its full potential, but the current build up does make it bit slower to get there.
It could probably still do with minor tweaking.
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drugon

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Re: Ammochain
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2011, 04:13 »

Well now you need Reload (2) to get... hm MAC. ^_^ But with MAC you even don't need to reload your chain weapon. So it (Reload trait) becomes useless. Don't you think that it's kinda strange?
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grommile

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Re: Ammochain
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2011, 04:54 »

Even with MAC and a five-mod plasma rifle, there are still jobs for which you want a BFG or a rocket launcher, both of which benefit quite a lot from Reloader.
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Sambojin

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Re: Ammochain
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2011, 22:54 »

Quote
Well now you need Reload (2) to get... hm MAC. ^_^ But with MAC you even don't need to reload your chain weapon. So it (Reload trait) becomes useless. Don't you think that it's kinda strange?

Reloader is like that in all the master traits it's used in. For MAD an MFa you won't need reloader all that much with shottyman providing the move/reload that it does. But it does help when you need the other weapons (MFa doesn't actually boost damage in any way at all for shotguns, although it is a shotgun-centric master trait).

Think of it as Reloader(1)=good, Reloader(2)=great, MAC/shottyman=best. It's more of a scale up of reloader, not a redundancy.
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drugon

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Re: Ammochain
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2011, 01:46 »

Well I agree with that. But anyway I think that MAC is the strongest master trait in its current state. And it's not too hard to get good chain weapon. Talking about shotguns. Even now you can't get MAD if you want to get Whizkid. But with any other master trait you can.
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Sambojin

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Re: Ammochain
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2011, 23:37 »

It's just for balance though. Being able to multi-power-mod shotguns would be too good with MAD. It already makes all shotguns better on a per-ammo basis than virtually all other weapons (MAC aside), and even compete's with most on a DPS basis. Especially in the end-game where most things have at least a point or two of armour and considering the AOE effect of shotguns. MAD shotgun shells are better than plasma, and plasma is the best thing otherwise in the game.

Have a look at the Elephant Gun and the Tactical Shotgun(or Assault Shotgun). Then think that those minimums and averages are EXACTLY the damage you can expect and sometimes more. Then take a look at the Focused Double Barrel Shotgun. There is a reason that MAD specc'ed characters can't use it. Even a Combat Shotgun(p3) would be pretty friggin scary.

MAC isn't the most uber trait out there now. Reloader is just the most versatile trait build-wise. MAC still is bloody good though (no matter what crops up in the game, you'll ALWAYS have a good ammo-free weapon. It's like they gave you a firestorm-mod and a useable nano-mod on the first plasma gun you came across. Anything better and you'll destroy things almost too easily. But you'll always get that plasma gun at some stage regardless).
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drugon

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Re: Ammochain
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2011, 02:10 »

And plasma is very powerful weapon. More than that - there are much powerful chain weapons in the game. For example - you can make High Power Plasma Rifle or find Laser Rifle.
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GrimmC

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Re: Ammochain
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2011, 14:47 »

Different question but same topic so---

Why does TaN block Ammochain? It seems like a natural fit, making a Wolfenstein-esque character stomping his way through Hell with an endlessly firing chaingun. Is it purely for balance reasons?

Right now the only master traits TaN works toward are both melee. And the only one other it allows is MFa, which is a pretty poor fit imo. (Already gonna be dodging half the damn attacks in the game.) Everything else is blocked. Seems like it limits the usefulness of it.

EDIT: Got a little confused about my Master Trait pre-reqs, obviously. But that just reinforces my point even more.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 16:39 by GrimmC »
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Thexare

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Re: Ammochain
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2011, 15:19 »

Right now the only master traits TaN works toward are both melee. And the only one other it allows is MFa, which is a pretty poor fit imo. (Already gonna be dodging half the damn attacks in the game.) Everything else is blocked. Seems like it limits the usefulness of it.
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Gargulec

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Re: Ammochain
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2011, 15:47 »

Different question but same topic so---

Why does TaN block Ammochain? It seems like a natural fit, making a Wolfenstein-esque character stomping his way through Hell with an endlessly firing chaingun. Is it purely for balance reasons?

Right now the only master traits TaN works toward are both melee. And the only one other it allows is MFa, which is a pretty poor fit imo. (Already gonna be dodging half the damn attacks in the game.) Everything else is blocked. Seems like it limits the usefulness of it.

Balance reasons. MAc is Tactical Defence build, it should not allow Passive elements, or it would get even more grossly OP that it is right now.
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Re: Ammochain
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2011, 16:02 »

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Quite true, I retract my previous statement. Goes to show how much I like that trait. Thanks for the response Gargulec, makes sense. Too bad though, seems like it would be a fun combination.

EDIT: So right now, your only choices for TaN are MVm (locks you into melee), MAD (locks you into shotguns), and MFa (which is practically useless since you'll be dodging so much. Guaranteed to be a late-game choice no matter what). Obviously, TaN & BA are great at the mid-level, but only in a generalist game--since it locks you out of so many options. Doesn't make it an appealing choice, imo.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2011, 16:46 by GrimmC »
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