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[Kornel Kisielewicz]

DoomRL has been featured on Roguelike Radio!

http://roguelikeradio.blogspot.com/

Roguelike Radio is a weekly podcast about roguelikes, where big names of the Roguelike scene dissect and talk about popular modern roguelike games. Be sure not only to check out the recent DoomRL episode as well as former episodes about Brogue, Cardinal Quest and Desktop Dungeons!

The DoomRL episode was quite full of critique, especially arguing that DoomRL has strayed away from it's simple coffeebreak roots, which the podcasters consider a bad thing. What is your opinion? State it on the Roguelike Radio blog, and help out with DoomRL's future direction!

http://roguelikeradio.blogspot.com/2011/09/episode-4-doomrl.html

[ParaSait]

Cool :D!
Yeah, DoomRL sure isn't really a coffeebreak game anymore. But I think that's alright; despite being still quite simple for a roguelike (in that you learn how to play it quickly), it has a achieved an immense replayability and a rather unique kind of complexity for games of its kind. I certainly don't consider that a bad thing.
Let's just say DoomRL has evolved from a simple coffeebreak roguelike, to a complete hobby on its own. :P

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

ParaSait, post that (and expand it) on the Roguelike Radio blog -- because I think you have a point there too!

[Darren Grey]

Perhaps it has bad PR, since people expect it to be a coffeebreak  ;)

I'm curious as to what regulars here think about the unlocks though.  I really could dig the game a lot more if I had instant access to the content I want.  Does it not frustrate others when switching between computers, or when you have to do a reinstall?  Does it not make it harder to introduce to your friends?

And the interface could do with a bit of work too, in my opinion, just to streamline the gameplay a little more.  Mouse support is not particularly hard to implement in FreePascal, and I think it could add a tonne to how quick the game plays.  Left click move, right click fire, middle click reload - damned fiends can get blasted back to hell without me having to glance at my keyboard!  Inventory should perhaps be looked at - stack all ammo together, reduce inven size, and combine the inventory and eq screens so you can compare things easier.  Or just add an equipment comparison box in the inventory screen.  Change the modified description on items to just "mod" so it doesn't cut off on the right.  Lots of other little tweaks can be made to make playing the game that bit more pleasant.

[MaiZure]

Thanks for the air time Darren - even if we don't see eye to eye. Good program!

As for your points, I'll be brief and I'm sure everyone else will follow up with a book on the subject...

I'm curious as to what regulars here think about the unlocks though.  I really could dig the game a lot more if I had instant access to the content I want.  Does it not frustrate others when switching between computers, or when you have to do a reinstall?  Does it not make it harder to introduce to your friends?

I'm decent enough at the game to unlock all the features within the first 10 runs, and prior to this version probably in the first 5. As for the computer switching, my permanent profile and game are stored on my keychain flash drive so I always have it. Introducing it to my friends hasn't been too much of a problem because they seem to stuggle enough with the default content to not worry about the actual challenge modes. Actually, you self impose most of the restrictions and get the same experience in a standard game (not Ao100 though). Also, I believe that you can probably unlock most of the feature without even beating the game since a lot of the early reqs involve beating special levels and getting to level 12 on the first 3 challenge modes.

I don't have much to say about the UI except that I'm 'used' to it. I agree that the UI is probably key to keeping a new player interested.

[Game Hunter]

MaiZure really called that one!

I'm curious as to what regulars here think about the unlocks though.  I really could dig the game a lot more if I had instant access to the content I want.  Does it not frustrate others when switching between computers, or when you have to do a reinstall?  Does it not make it harder to introduce to your friends?

To begin, player records have been compatible since 0.9.9.0, and KK has said that he will continue to make this work for subsequent versions. Furthermore, the records are also backed up multiple times by default (and they're as easy to move around as copying the player.wad and score.wad files to the other directory). Thus, there shouldn't be detrimental problems with moving to another computer or reinstalling unless the entire DoomRL directory was corrupted or removed. In other words, if you've played a few weeks, you should have everything unlocked, and it can stay with you for as long as you like.

I never keep my records from version to version, but it doesn't matter much anyway since it's quite easy to unlock everything within a few (successful) playthroughs, which shouldn't take more than a few hours. For beginners this isn't as easy to do, but they can keep their records from previous versions if they want everything unlocked as it was before. It's not like there are radical changes to the gameplay with the challenge modes: at most the Angel of Pacifism and 100 could appeal to different types of players, but I highly doubt they'd be any good at them unless they could handle the normal game well enough first. (Other challenges modes, like Angel of Markmanship, Shottgunnery, Impatience, and Purity, can be imitated simply by limiting yourself manually.) The only other unlocks that would be annoying are assembly schematics, but if you're learned a good deal of them before then you can either head over to the Wiki (where they are fully documented) or boot up an old version, write down the recipes somewhere, and use that to make them.

Overall I'm not too concerned about unlocks, but I'm not sure that regular is a good person to ask. If beginners really hate it, I've yet to hear some complaints. (So this would be a place for to say it if they think that!)

And the interface could do with a bit of work too, in my opinion, just to streamline the gameplay a little more.  1)Mouse support is not particularly hard to implement in FreePascal, and I think it could add a tonne to how quick the game plays.  Left click move, right click fire, middle click reload - damned fiends can get blasted back to hell without me having to glance at my keyboard!  2)Inventory should perhaps be looked at - stack all ammo together, reduce inven size, and combine the inventory and eq screens so you can compare things easier.  Or just add an equipment comparison box in the inventory screen.  3)Change the modified description on items to just "mod" so it doesn't cut off on the right.  Lots of other little tweaks can be made to make playing the game that bit more pleasant.

1) Mouse support sounds...awkward. The non-movement makes sense, but moving would either have to be done step-by-step (which is a PAIN for a mouse) or uses auto-run, which could be very disorienting. Note that a lot of movement in DoomRL isn't just going from place to place, as there is plenty of tactical maneuvering involved, and using the mouse for these careful actions may not be ideal (in the same way that trying to play the original with the mouse was extremely awkward for strafing/turning). One thing we could likely attempt to emphasize is the run-mode button, which lets you speed off in a given direction: this can significantly affect the game's pace (in a good way) if used properly. I actually set up my run button for numpad5 (using the numpad for movement) and it allows for a very streamlined usage.

2) The ammo-stack and inventory sizes are actually a part of game strategy, so I'm not too keen to change them for the sake of improving UI. Admittedly it's a little clunky, but you get fairly used to it (in the same way you get used to other game's inventories...at least here the inventory is strictly limited to a single page).

3)This is a definite improvement without real drawbacks, so I see no reason not to do it. (At least, I think people will realize that "mod" stands for "modified" when it shows up that way in-game.)

Really though, any suggestions you have, any at all, should be posted without delay. I agree that there are a lot of really tiny flaws here and there that, when collectively fixed, could remarkably decrease UI distractions from the gameplay. Usually they're either so rare or so small that I forget to post when I think of it and forget, but they are no less important than the other things that are changed over time.

[Darren Grey]

Unlocks: I think a couple of hours to get numerous unlocks is too much, and having to fiddle with files to keep your unlocks is a fair bit of hassle.

Regarding getting assembly mechanics from the wiki, I think this is pretty bad game design myself.  You shouldn't have to spoil yourself to get access to such content.  Especially in such a relatively light game which is otherwise very transparent in its mechanics.  In general the modding system is pretty opaque for new players and could do with a bit better in-game explanation.

Mouse movement I can understand not being perfect - in general keyboard is faster and more accurate.  However it does help new players adjust in.  I mostly suggest mouse support for aiming though, as I think it can be preferable in many circumstances.  Having both movement and targeting (with movement done well - it can be done well) also has the advantage of being able to play one-handed, enjoying a lovely cup of tea in the other hand as you slaughter your way through the depths of hell.

Inventory size limit is part of the tactics, but amount of ammo doesn't seem to be (at least in the current version).  Lessen ammo space and lessen inventory size wouldn't change the game much from its current balance.  Though I defer to more experienced players' opinions on this matter!

I mentioned on the podcast that I was surprised to see little emphasis on UI and polish in the Requests subforum.  Perhaps this is something for the community in general to consider when playing.  I think that maximising the number of people that can enjoy the game is important, and core to that is making it easy to get into.

[Malek Deneith]

Regarding assemblies - aside from dumb luck or spoiling yourself there is also in-game mechanic that lets you learn assemblies. Namely after beating the monster released by lever in Armory special level you get a schematics powerup that teaches you one assembly you don't currently know.

[Darren Grey]

Uh, but surely you have to be spoiled to even know that?  Y'know I wouldn't mind if the assemblies were randomised each game and there were more ways to find combos (as well as trial and error of course).  But I'm guessing that as is *every* player consults the wiki for assemblies, apart from the few they know off by heart due to experience.  It's a bit like if Nethack's potions had the same unided description every game.

[Game Hunter]

Unlocks: I think a couple of hours to get numerous unlocks is too much, and having to fiddle with files to keep your unlocks is a fair bit of hassle.

Ideally this problem will be solved once we establish a server that can keep track of players who connect to it while playing the game. The server is actually THERE, so it's now a matter of setting it up and adding the necessary sofware-based infrastructure. This will also be a place to quickly find and use modules.

Unlocks (at least as they are known here) will probably be gone in DRL2's classic mode, which will let you pick just about any combination. Talking about it HERE is moot, I know. I suppose I don't see a reason to keep them around, but I personally enjoyed having to work for additional options.

Regarding getting assembly mechanics from the wiki, I think this is pretty bad game design myself.  You shouldn't have to spoil yourself to get access to such content.  Especially in such a relatively light game which is otherwise very transparent in its mechanics.  In general the modding system is pretty opaque for new players and could do with a bit better in-game explanation.

...I wouldn't mind if the assemblies were randomised each game and there were more ways to find combos (as well as trial and error of course).  But I'm guessing that as is *every* player consults the wiki for assemblies, apart from the few they know off by heart due to experience.  It's a bit like if Nethack's potions had the same unided description every game.

Perhaps it's because I happen to be pretty good at this sort of thing, but I was able to learn nearly all of the basic assemblies without any prior knowledge by simply testing possibilities in a few games. The advanced and master assemblies are more likely to require Armory runs (where you can find "schematics") but those are really powerful anyway, so this is somewhat justified (in the same way that exotics and uniques are rare to come across). I believe the inspiration of assemblies came from Diablo II with its "rune words", and they work almost identically, the only real difference being that the player is locked out of some assemblies unless they have points in Whizkid.

That said, assemblies do stick out like a sore thumb in a game that, as I said previously, lays all its cards on the table. It may be a good idea to consider revising their principal functionality. (ID randomization for this game, however, is a huge no: being able to focus on adaptable tactics, rather than resources, is part of DoomRL's distinction and charm.)

Also, ammo amount is definitely part of the tactics, trust me. Running out is VERY possible on harder difficulties, since it's easy to run through a few stacks on a single level without being able to replenish it. A lot of the late-game frustration is caused by running out of your ammo of choice, even if you end up well-stocked early on. Overall I'd like to see a more uniform distribution of ammunition, such that you have to worry about its usage, but not the bad luck of five floors in a row without restocking.

I'll defer significant UI changes to the development team, as I personally have no qualms with the system as-is. Mouse movement sounds interesting enough to consider, though I don't know if they'll want to take the time to add it when there's so many other things to work on.

[Malek Deneith]

Uh, but surely you have to be spoiled to even know that?

Not really, no. Unless you're actively avoiding special levels you'll visit Armory sooner or later. After that's it's simply matter of pulling a lever, surviving the miniboss and then picking up the powerup (it spawns near the exit so it's not missable). It might take you a few games to stumble upon, but you don't have to spoil yourself.

[void*]

I never keep my records from version to version, but it doesn't matter much anyway since it's quite easy to unlock everything within a few (successful) playthroughs, which shouldn't take more than a few hours.

This is a bit off topic, as I don't really care much about the unlocks, but as a side-note I must say I find it funny that you consider "a few hours" a short time...

With full time work and plenty of other obligations on my time I rarely spend a few hours per week playing games altogether (not to mention playing a single game for a few hours at a time).

Add to that the indie-games explosion of the past few years, with the sheer bulk of really good cheap or free games it had brought, and most games don't get a few hours of play from me in total .

Basically only games I really liked do, and DoomRL is one of the very few games that I've played for longer than that.

I also see this attitude with others here, like Malek claiming it only takes "a few games" to learn assemblies - a few games is what most players will ever play before moving to the next game...

It's basically the same "mistake" I feel the DCSS team has made, with concentrating on stuff mostly only advanced player will ever see: a ton more people will play levels 1-10 than 15-25 and it would be wise IMO to make sure these levels are as interesting as possible.

[Malek Deneith]

void - while I can see some truth in your argument about balancing the game with thought of advanced players (I do admit I tend to feel this is the case at times myself), I think you're confusing skill (the normal vs advanced player scale) with free time.

I am not 'advanced' player. None at all, and I am first to admit it. Yet I have seen good deal of endgame features, simply because I have the time to spend on the game. Now I know not every one has the time - you yourself admitted you don't have it, and I understand how life can severely limit the time available for gaming and other luxuries. But that's not a problem with the game. Some games are aimed at the, excuse me the term but it feels appropiate here, 'casual' player, some do not.

Roguelikes in general tend to be aimed at players that have the time to spend playing them, or at least have some sort of commitment, meaning that they'll continue spending the time they can over and extended period of, well, time. DoomRL might have started as a game more suited for casual players (hence the original 'coffebreak' label), but has since moved way past that. The only way that it could return to that state right now is if Kornel took an axe to it and started to remove features en masse, and I doubt that'd make anyone happy. About the only thing we could do is to remove the 'coffebreak' from description, because as most agree it does not apply any longer.

[void*]

I am not 'advanced' player. None at all, and I am first to admit it. Yet I have seen good deal of endgame features, simply because I have the time to spend on the game. Now I know not every one has the time - you yourself admitted you don't have it, and I understand how life can severely limit the time available for gaming and other luxuries. But that's not a problem with the game. Some games are aimed at the, excuse me the term but it feels appropiate here, 'casual' player, some do not.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't still keep an eye on not wasting the players' time tho- I think it's one of the most important aspects of game design: give the player a meaningful experience and don't waste their time!

[Malek Deneith]

Ah, but "wasting the time" is a bit subjective, don't you think? To you, it seems, figuring out assemblies by trial or schematics is "waste of your time" and early levels don't seem to have "meaningful experience". I am on the opposite side of the scale - for me trying to figure things like assemblies, or acquiring them via schematics is fun experience, and I find enough enjoyment in early levels to justify playign the game. In the DoomRL community at large we could find people who'd agree with me, people who'd agree with you and people who'd fall somewhere in between. I don't really think it's possible to please everybody. If you keep returning to the game than I'd say you found your "meaningful experience" already, or at least some semblance of it - after all there is something in the game that makes you play it.

[void*]

I think you are mixing me with Darren - I never said anything about assemblies or schematics although I might not disagree with him.

I also wasn't talking about DoomRL specifically, only about your comment regarding "unlocking only takes a few hours".

As I said I also don't mind the unlocks much either, I just think "a few hours" is a lot of time & a game designer shouldn't think it's ok for something to take "just a few hours" unless there is a good reason for it to take this long. Especially for something you might need to do more than once.

In our example the thinking should start with "is there a really good reason to have challenge modes start locked?" and only lock them if the answer is yes. It seems to me they were made locked by default instead.

[rchandra]

Perhaps the biggest issue is that the game tells you you're missing stuff, which brings out the 'why can't I have my stuff right now' instinct.  Perhaps the unavailable difficulties / modes should be hidden until they are unlocked.

When I was new to DoomRL I liked the unlock system, it provided a gradual introduction to the available modes and gave some concrete goals on the way to getting those tougher wins.  And I'm pretty sure I was not close to being able to beat anything I unlocked until quite a while afterwards, possible exception Angel of Berserk.  Heck, some of it I still can't get anywhere with!

With assemblies, I honestly think the recipes should be considered part of, and included in, the game documentation.  Failing that, the basics should be given right away with the advanced/master dropping down in difficulty for their unlocks.  Or for even less spoily, just tell the player to keep bashing mods together even when he can't add a 2nd :)

Oh, regarding 'you might need to do it more than once' - this is like saying Super Meat Boy should start with all levels unlocked, in case you delete your files.  Note that you don't need to re-do your unlocks between versions, some people just like to - I've kept my profile from 0.9.9.1 onwards.

[Game Hunter]

This is a bit off topic, as I don't really care much about the unlocks, but as a side-note I must say I find it funny that you consider "a few hours" a short time...

It sure is a short amount of time when you've already invested a couple hundred hours into the game! I'll be honest that I don't have that kind of time to invest on games anymore, but I really don't mind spending what time I have on game modes that I enjoy in order to reach other game modes that I also enjoy. Part of the fun for me is to get back to where I was (which is why I don't keep my files from one version to the next), but for those people who don't find that fun, you can still transfer your data and instantly retrieve the unlocked stuff. If you haven't yet gotten that stuff...you probably aren't at the level to find it fun anyway.

("But who are you to tell me I won't find it fun?" you may ask. In my vast experience I can tell you that, on a per-game basis, every single challenge mode is harder than the standard game. This means if you can't beat the standard game, you aren't going to have much luck with the others. Maybe Pacifism or Haste only take about half as long to do time-wise, but unless you're already quite good at the game, it will take far longer to accomplish these things. It's the same reason the harder difficulties are locked, although I don't see anyone complaining particularly about those.)

Having said that, I don't see any reason that doesn't involve forcing the player to crawl before they can walk/run/somersault, and from the persepctive of playing a game this is probably more of a deterrent than it is a benefit. Given the choice, I would vote to get rid of them. (That is to say, I don't foresee people complaining that challenge modes and harder difficulty AREN'T locked.) On the other hand, part of 0.9.9.5 is going to actually ADD more things-to-unlock, so we should probably ponder some more on that as well.

Since the "only a few hours" part is off-topic, I'm not going to digress heavily into it. Suffice it to say that if a game takes more time than I can spend on it, I would be wise to choose another game. (This is why I'm not playing Dwarf Fortress, even though I really want to.)

[Darren Grey]

("But who are you to tell me I won't find it fun?" you may ask. In my vast experience I can tell you that, on a per-game basis, every single challenge mode is harder than the standard game. This means if you can't beat the standard game, you aren't going to have much luck with the others. Maybe Pacifism or Haste only take about half as long to do time-wise, but unless you're already quite good at the game, it will take far longer to accomplish these things. It's the same reason the harder difficulties are locked, although I don't see anyone complaining particularly about those.)

No one complains about the harder difficulties being unlocked because they don't offer a distinctly different play experience - just the normal game but harder.  The challenge modes do offer a shift in gameplay style, or some specific focus, and can be a nice distraction from the regular game.  However I'd also say I don't see why the harder modes should be locked either, it just doesn't annoy me as much.

Personally I love challenge games in roguelikes, and DoomRL's are pretty famous in the genre, so I was very disappointed to see I couldn't leap into them straight away.  I don't see why the game should hold back content from new players - let everyone decide for themselves what they want to play.

[flecks]

Now i found why im here.
i can't believe they can just all not play the new version.. But i guess it is only concepts they are trying to be sad about.
Well, at the very least. I for one would like to find a way to play the older versions of DOOMrl.. Maybe creator or others can help.  Maybe there is a cry for help or maybe not. it was snuffed out. Evolution of projects, projecting.  Anyways. Since i only started playing within the last to releases.  I can really only say i am impressed.  And alot of other RL i dont think hold a candle to this sort of progression.   And well this is all ranty and partish time, but its not like i can find many RL anyways that work and are unique.   

I feel they really bashed you, sir.  But there is no thing as bad publicity i spose. hahAHA.  Anyways. Good days and nights.

I just think its cool what you've done with the genre as a whole. 

!!

[Bloax]

I still find this a Coffe-Break Roguelike.

Blasting through a couple of levels can take ten minutes, ten interesting minutes.
Isn't that coffe-break enough?

As for challenges, it'd be fun if you could combine them. (Ao100+AoD, AoSg+Ao100)
Though I guess most of those would be next-to/impossible to complete, it'd still be interesting to play them. :-)

[rchandra]

Has anybody else noticed that DoomRL gets mentioned almost every episode, in a generally positive way, since it was featured?  today one of the Dredmor developers mentioned it.

[Gamer-man]

OK, I am mostly a new player to DoomRL, I played 20 or so rounds of DoomRL 0.9.9.1, and failed every round, and didn't play again until about a week ago, when i found out a version 0.9.9.4 existed.  I was excited to try it out.
Here is my take on the whole thing.
A:  DoomRL I think can still be a coffee break game.  What is important to me in a coffee break game is that i can pick it up, and leave the game, in a 15 minute span.  DoomRL allows this, as even if i hadn't played in a month, I could boot up a save and realise exactly what was going on when i left off.  If I wanted a game I could finish in 15 minutes, it would have to be much more simple, and then I might as well just play minesweeper (or online chess).  Doom you can play as an hour long run or in 15 minute segments, and it works either way, and I think that is what is best.
B:  As I said, I never beat 0.9.9.1 on any difficulty, so i was pretty much a total newcomer to 0.9.9.4.  I have already unlocked everything but Angel of Humanity.  What i have unlocked, I wouldn't have been able to complete before i unlocked it.  I like knowing i am unlocking stuff early on, when I'm still prone to losing alot, to persuade me to keep going.  I also like that the unlocks are front loaded, however, so that i know i will have everything without having to break my back doing do.
C:  I jumped right into the game in version 0.9.9.1, i jumped back in in version 0.9.9.4.  Interface was never a problem, though that might just be that I'm use to video games.  I could guess most of the key presses i didn't know, and looking up the ones i didn't wasn't difficult, though a modern in game key binding options (like what half-life does) would be nice.  Other things are ammo chains should be with ammo, and easier to unequip. One of the skulls blended in with healthpacks in the inventory and berzerker packs should look more different from large health globes.  Also, when trying to pick something up with a full inventory, it should automatically bring up what you want to replace for it (non ammo, leave ammo as just the notification).  That is the total of complaints about interface, and none of them are too large of a problem.
D:  Assemblies I came in knowing how they worked (toss 2+ mods on the same item), but i didn't know any assemblies, and kept it that way.  I did not read the updated in game documentation, so i have no idea how well they were covered.  First thing i did when i modded a weapon was whenever i found another mod, i tried to toss it on the weapon and found out if it worked or not.  I got over half the basic assemblies like that.  I beat Hell's Armoury, found out about the blueprints by beating it, and went back to get another blueprint every time.  I like that I'm discovering these and earning these, and that I will have them forever now that i know how to do them (even if i have to start over).  0.9.9.1 was hard to get into because I only improved slightly each time, and it was hard to notice because of how random the game can be.  0.9.9.4 is easy to get into because I am learning new stuff with each run, so it makes me want to get more during the learning curve.  And no, i did not have to have Hell's Armoury is a way to get blueprints spoiled for me, i learned it in the confines of the game.

I personally have been having a blast with 0.9.9.4 since I got it.  I'm glad unlocks are the way they are (i played less than 25 times, and I'm a newcomer, that can't be too much to do), I'm glad assemblies are the way they are.  I'm glad things are run on the keyboard like they should be.  And I have highly recommended this game to as many people as i could, and the two who have played so far also said it was fun and intuitive (though i have no idea if they know about assemblies, or have thought to blind fire yet, also corner shooting should be more intuitive or at least checkable (advance wars had something where you could select an enemy and see what his threat range was, maybe something like that should be added to the look feature)).  I say keep up the good work!

edit:  ohh yeah, almost forgot, run shouldn't be named "tactics", it should be named "running" unless other tactics are available.  as for the run key (the other type of running), it should be moved somewhere more useful.  perhaps x or c or /, i die way too much moving while impatcient, but , is so akward with one hand on frz and the other on numpad to find , that i just haven't taken to using it.

[Game Hunter]

As I said, I never beat 0.9.9.1 on any difficulty, so i was pretty much a total newcomer to 0.9.9.4.  I have already unlocked everything but Angel of Humanity.  What i have unlocked, I wouldn't have been able to complete before i unlocked it.  I like knowing i am unlocking stuff early on, when I'm still prone to losing alot, to persuade me to keep going.  I also like that the unlocks are front loaded, however, so that i know i will have everything without having to break my back doing do.

Well it's good to know that even relatively new players can handle unlocking things without too much trouble. There's been a good deal of badge rearranging, too, so if anything it should be a little easier to unlock.

I could guess most of the key presses i didn't know, and looking up the ones i didn't wasn't difficult, though a modern in game key binding options (like what half-life does) would be nice.

While not directly IN the game, there's a file called keybindings.lua which allows you to do exactly this. I actually made a little video that goes through each of the customization files, which can be found here: you can also find a lot of information about these files on the Wiki.

Also, welcome to the forums!

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Better configuration is planned for 0.9.9.6, thank you for your detailed critique - it really helps!