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[void*]

I think you are mixing me with Darren - I never said anything about assemblies or schematics although I might not disagree with him.

I also wasn't talking about DoomRL specifically, only about your comment regarding "unlocking only takes a few hours".

As I said I also don't mind the unlocks much either, I just think "a few hours" is a lot of time & a game designer shouldn't think it's ok for something to take "just a few hours" unless there is a good reason for it to take this long. Especially for something you might need to do more than once.

In our example the thinking should start with "is there a really good reason to have challenge modes start locked?" and only lock them if the answer is yes. It seems to me they were made locked by default instead.

[rchandra]

Perhaps the biggest issue is that the game tells you you're missing stuff, which brings out the 'why can't I have my stuff right now' instinct.  Perhaps the unavailable difficulties / modes should be hidden until they are unlocked.

When I was new to DoomRL I liked the unlock system, it provided a gradual introduction to the available modes and gave some concrete goals on the way to getting those tougher wins.  And I'm pretty sure I was not close to being able to beat anything I unlocked until quite a while afterwards, possible exception Angel of Berserk.  Heck, some of it I still can't get anywhere with!

With assemblies, I honestly think the recipes should be considered part of, and included in, the game documentation.  Failing that, the basics should be given right away with the advanced/master dropping down in difficulty for their unlocks.  Or for even less spoily, just tell the player to keep bashing mods together even when he can't add a 2nd :)

Oh, regarding 'you might need to do it more than once' - this is like saying Super Meat Boy should start with all levels unlocked, in case you delete your files.  Note that you don't need to re-do your unlocks between versions, some people just like to - I've kept my profile from 0.9.9.1 onwards.

[Game Hunter]

This is a bit off topic, as I don't really care much about the unlocks, but as a side-note I must say I find it funny that you consider "a few hours" a short time...

It sure is a short amount of time when you've already invested a couple hundred hours into the game! I'll be honest that I don't have that kind of time to invest on games anymore, but I really don't mind spending what time I have on game modes that I enjoy in order to reach other game modes that I also enjoy. Part of the fun for me is to get back to where I was (which is why I don't keep my files from one version to the next), but for those people who don't find that fun, you can still transfer your data and instantly retrieve the unlocked stuff. If you haven't yet gotten that stuff...you probably aren't at the level to find it fun anyway.

("But who are you to tell me I won't find it fun?" you may ask. In my vast experience I can tell you that, on a per-game basis, every single challenge mode is harder than the standard game. This means if you can't beat the standard game, you aren't going to have much luck with the others. Maybe Pacifism or Haste only take about half as long to do time-wise, but unless you're already quite good at the game, it will take far longer to accomplish these things. It's the same reason the harder difficulties are locked, although I don't see anyone complaining particularly about those.)

Having said that, I don't see any reason that doesn't involve forcing the player to crawl before they can walk/run/somersault, and from the persepctive of playing a game this is probably more of a deterrent than it is a benefit. Given the choice, I would vote to get rid of them. (That is to say, I don't foresee people complaining that challenge modes and harder difficulty AREN'T locked.) On the other hand, part of 0.9.9.5 is going to actually ADD more things-to-unlock, so we should probably ponder some more on that as well.

Since the "only a few hours" part is off-topic, I'm not going to digress heavily into it. Suffice it to say that if a game takes more time than I can spend on it, I would be wise to choose another game. (This is why I'm not playing Dwarf Fortress, even though I really want to.)

[Darren Grey]

("But who are you to tell me I won't find it fun?" you may ask. In my vast experience I can tell you that, on a per-game basis, every single challenge mode is harder than the standard game. This means if you can't beat the standard game, you aren't going to have much luck with the others. Maybe Pacifism or Haste only take about half as long to do time-wise, but unless you're already quite good at the game, it will take far longer to accomplish these things. It's the same reason the harder difficulties are locked, although I don't see anyone complaining particularly about those.)

No one complains about the harder difficulties being unlocked because they don't offer a distinctly different play experience - just the normal game but harder.  The challenge modes do offer a shift in gameplay style, or some specific focus, and can be a nice distraction from the regular game.  However I'd also say I don't see why the harder modes should be locked either, it just doesn't annoy me as much.

Personally I love challenge games in roguelikes, and DoomRL's are pretty famous in the genre, so I was very disappointed to see I couldn't leap into them straight away.  I don't see why the game should hold back content from new players - let everyone decide for themselves what they want to play.

[flecks]

Now i found why im here.
i can't believe they can just all not play the new version.. But i guess it is only concepts they are trying to be sad about.
Well, at the very least. I for one would like to find a way to play the older versions of DOOMrl.. Maybe creator or others can help.  Maybe there is a cry for help or maybe not. it was snuffed out. Evolution of projects, projecting.  Anyways. Since i only started playing within the last to releases.  I can really only say i am impressed.  And alot of other RL i dont think hold a candle to this sort of progression.   And well this is all ranty and partish time, but its not like i can find many RL anyways that work and are unique.   

I feel they really bashed you, sir.  But there is no thing as bad publicity i spose. hahAHA.  Anyways. Good days and nights.

I just think its cool what you've done with the genre as a whole. 

!!

[Bloax]

I still find this a Coffe-Break Roguelike.

Blasting through a couple of levels can take ten minutes, ten interesting minutes.
Isn't that coffe-break enough?

As for challenges, it'd be fun if you could combine them. (Ao100+AoD, AoSg+Ao100)
Though I guess most of those would be next-to/impossible to complete, it'd still be interesting to play them. :-)

[rchandra]

Has anybody else noticed that DoomRL gets mentioned almost every episode, in a generally positive way, since it was featured?  today one of the Dredmor developers mentioned it.

[Gamer-man]

OK, I am mostly a new player to DoomRL, I played 20 or so rounds of DoomRL 0.9.9.1, and failed every round, and didn't play again until about a week ago, when i found out a version 0.9.9.4 existed.  I was excited to try it out.
Here is my take on the whole thing.
A:  DoomRL I think can still be a coffee break game.  What is important to me in a coffee break game is that i can pick it up, and leave the game, in a 15 minute span.  DoomRL allows this, as even if i hadn't played in a month, I could boot up a save and realise exactly what was going on when i left off.  If I wanted a game I could finish in 15 minutes, it would have to be much more simple, and then I might as well just play minesweeper (or online chess).  Doom you can play as an hour long run or in 15 minute segments, and it works either way, and I think that is what is best.
B:  As I said, I never beat 0.9.9.1 on any difficulty, so i was pretty much a total newcomer to 0.9.9.4.  I have already unlocked everything but Angel of Humanity.  What i have unlocked, I wouldn't have been able to complete before i unlocked it.  I like knowing i am unlocking stuff early on, when I'm still prone to losing alot, to persuade me to keep going.  I also like that the unlocks are front loaded, however, so that i know i will have everything without having to break my back doing do.
C:  I jumped right into the game in version 0.9.9.1, i jumped back in in version 0.9.9.4.  Interface was never a problem, though that might just be that I'm use to video games.  I could guess most of the key presses i didn't know, and looking up the ones i didn't wasn't difficult, though a modern in game key binding options (like what half-life does) would be nice.  Other things are ammo chains should be with ammo, and easier to unequip. One of the skulls blended in with healthpacks in the inventory and berzerker packs should look more different from large health globes.  Also, when trying to pick something up with a full inventory, it should automatically bring up what you want to replace for it (non ammo, leave ammo as just the notification).  That is the total of complaints about interface, and none of them are too large of a problem.
D:  Assemblies I came in knowing how they worked (toss 2+ mods on the same item), but i didn't know any assemblies, and kept it that way.  I did not read the updated in game documentation, so i have no idea how well they were covered.  First thing i did when i modded a weapon was whenever i found another mod, i tried to toss it on the weapon and found out if it worked or not.  I got over half the basic assemblies like that.  I beat Hell's Armoury, found out about the blueprints by beating it, and went back to get another blueprint every time.  I like that I'm discovering these and earning these, and that I will have them forever now that i know how to do them (even if i have to start over).  0.9.9.1 was hard to get into because I only improved slightly each time, and it was hard to notice because of how random the game can be.  0.9.9.4 is easy to get into because I am learning new stuff with each run, so it makes me want to get more during the learning curve.  And no, i did not have to have Hell's Armoury is a way to get blueprints spoiled for me, i learned it in the confines of the game.

I personally have been having a blast with 0.9.9.4 since I got it.  I'm glad unlocks are the way they are (i played less than 25 times, and I'm a newcomer, that can't be too much to do), I'm glad assemblies are the way they are.  I'm glad things are run on the keyboard like they should be.  And I have highly recommended this game to as many people as i could, and the two who have played so far also said it was fun and intuitive (though i have no idea if they know about assemblies, or have thought to blind fire yet, also corner shooting should be more intuitive or at least checkable (advance wars had something where you could select an enemy and see what his threat range was, maybe something like that should be added to the look feature)).  I say keep up the good work!

edit:  ohh yeah, almost forgot, run shouldn't be named "tactics", it should be named "running" unless other tactics are available.  as for the run key (the other type of running), it should be moved somewhere more useful.  perhaps x or c or /, i die way too much moving while impatcient, but , is so akward with one hand on frz and the other on numpad to find , that i just haven't taken to using it.

[Game Hunter]

As I said, I never beat 0.9.9.1 on any difficulty, so i was pretty much a total newcomer to 0.9.9.4.  I have already unlocked everything but Angel of Humanity.  What i have unlocked, I wouldn't have been able to complete before i unlocked it.  I like knowing i am unlocking stuff early on, when I'm still prone to losing alot, to persuade me to keep going.  I also like that the unlocks are front loaded, however, so that i know i will have everything without having to break my back doing do.

Well it's good to know that even relatively new players can handle unlocking things without too much trouble. There's been a good deal of badge rearranging, too, so if anything it should be a little easier to unlock.

I could guess most of the key presses i didn't know, and looking up the ones i didn't wasn't difficult, though a modern in game key binding options (like what half-life does) would be nice.

While not directly IN the game, there's a file called keybindings.lua which allows you to do exactly this. I actually made a little video that goes through each of the customization files, which can be found here: you can also find a lot of information about these files on the Wiki.

Also, welcome to the forums!

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Better configuration is planned for 0.9.9.6, thank you for your detailed critique - it really helps!