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void*:
I think you are mixing me with Darren - I never said anything about assemblies or schematics although I might not disagree with him.

I also wasn't talking about DoomRL specifically, only about your comment regarding "unlocking only takes a few hours".

As I said I also don't mind the unlocks much either, I just think "a few hours" is a lot of time & a game designer shouldn't think it's ok for something to take "just a few hours" unless there is a good reason for it to take this long. Especially for something you might need to do more than once.

In our example the thinking should start with "is there a really good reason to have challenge modes start locked?" and only lock them if the answer is yes. It seems to me they were made locked by default instead.

rchandra:
Perhaps the biggest issue is that the game tells you you're missing stuff, which brings out the 'why can't I have my stuff right now' instinct.  Perhaps the unavailable difficulties / modes should be hidden until they are unlocked.

When I was new to DoomRL I liked the unlock system, it provided a gradual introduction to the available modes and gave some concrete goals on the way to getting those tougher wins.  And I'm pretty sure I was not close to being able to beat anything I unlocked until quite a while afterwards, possible exception Angel of Berserk.  Heck, some of it I still can't get anywhere with!

With assemblies, I honestly think the recipes should be considered part of, and included in, the game documentation.  Failing that, the basics should be given right away with the advanced/master dropping down in difficulty for their unlocks.  Or for even less spoily, just tell the player to keep bashing mods together even when he can't add a 2nd :)

Oh, regarding 'you might need to do it more than once' - this is like saying Super Meat Boy should start with all levels unlocked, in case you delete your files.  Note that you don't need to re-do your unlocks between versions, some people just like to - I've kept my profile from 0.9.9.1 onwards.

Game Hunter:

--- Quote from: void* on September 27, 2011, 06:21 ---This is a bit off topic, as I don't really care much about the unlocks, but as a side-note I must say I find it funny that you consider "a few hours" a short time...
--- End quote ---
It sure is a short amount of time when you've already invested a couple hundred hours into the game! I'll be honest that I don't have that kind of time to invest on games anymore, but I really don't mind spending what time I have on game modes that I enjoy in order to reach other game modes that I also enjoy. Part of the fun for me is to get back to where I was (which is why I don't keep my files from one version to the next), but for those people who don't find that fun, you can still transfer your data and instantly retrieve the unlocked stuff. If you haven't yet gotten that stuff...you probably aren't at the level to find it fun anyway.

("But who are you to tell me I won't find it fun?" you may ask. In my vast experience I can tell you that, on a per-game basis, every single challenge mode is harder than the standard game. This means if you can't beat the standard game, you aren't going to have much luck with the others. Maybe Pacifism or Haste only take about half as long to do time-wise, but unless you're already quite good at the game, it will take far longer to accomplish these things. It's the same reason the harder difficulties are locked, although I don't see anyone complaining particularly about those.)

Having said that, I don't see any reason that doesn't involve forcing the player to crawl before they can walk/run/somersault, and from the persepctive of playing a game this is probably more of a deterrent than it is a benefit. Given the choice, I would vote to get rid of them. (That is to say, I don't foresee people complaining that challenge modes and harder difficulty AREN'T locked.) On the other hand, part of 0.9.9.5 is going to actually ADD more things-to-unlock, so we should probably ponder some more on that as well.

Since the "only a few hours" part is off-topic, I'm not going to digress heavily into it. Suffice it to say that if a game takes more time than I can spend on it, I would be wise to choose another game. (This is why I'm not playing Dwarf Fortress, even though I really want to.)

Darren Grey:

--- Quote from: Game Hunter on September 28, 2011, 08:33 ---("But who are you to tell me I won't find it fun?" you may ask. In my vast experience I can tell you that, on a per-game basis, every single challenge mode is harder than the standard game. This means if you can't beat the standard game, you aren't going to have much luck with the others. Maybe Pacifism or Haste only take about half as long to do time-wise, but unless you're already quite good at the game, it will take far longer to accomplish these things. It's the same reason the harder difficulties are locked, although I don't see anyone complaining particularly about those.)

--- End quote ---

No one complains about the harder difficulties being unlocked because they don't offer a distinctly different play experience - just the normal game but harder.  The challenge modes do offer a shift in gameplay style, or some specific focus, and can be a nice distraction from the regular game.  However I'd also say I don't see why the harder modes should be locked either, it just doesn't annoy me as much.

Personally I love challenge games in roguelikes, and DoomRL's are pretty famous in the genre, so I was very disappointed to see I couldn't leap into them straight away.  I don't see why the game should hold back content from new players - let everyone decide for themselves what they want to play.

flecks:
Now i found why im here.
i can't believe they can just all not play the new version.. But i guess it is only concepts they are trying to be sad about.
Well, at the very least. I for one would like to find a way to play the older versions of DOOMrl.. Maybe creator or others can help.  Maybe there is a cry for help or maybe not. it was snuffed out. Evolution of projects, projecting.  Anyways. Since i only started playing within the last to releases.  I can really only say i am impressed.  And alot of other RL i dont think hold a candle to this sort of progression.   And well this is all ranty and partish time, but its not like i can find many RL anyways that work and are unique.   

I feel they really bashed you, sir.  But there is no thing as bad publicity i spose. hahAHA.  Anyways. Good days and nights.

I just think its cool what you've done with the genre as a whole. 

!!

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