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Malek Deneith:

--- Quote from: Darren Grey on September 22, 2011, 07:45 ---Uh, but surely you have to be spoiled to even know that?
--- End quote ---
Not really, no. Unless you're actively avoiding special levels you'll visit Armory sooner or later. After that's it's simply matter of pulling a lever, surviving the miniboss and then picking up the powerup (it spawns near the exit so it's not missable). It might take you a few games to stumble upon, but you don't have to spoil yourself.

void*:

--- Quote from: Game Hunter on September 21, 2011, 09:07 ---I never keep my records from version to version, but it doesn't matter much anyway since it's quite easy to unlock everything within a few (successful) playthroughs, which shouldn't take more than a few hours.

--- End quote ---

This is a bit off topic, as I don't really care much about the unlocks, but as a side-note I must say I find it funny that you consider "a few hours" a short time...

With full time work and plenty of other obligations on my time I rarely spend a few hours per week playing games altogether (not to mention playing a single game for a few hours at a time).

Add to that the indie-games explosion of the past few years, with the sheer bulk of really good cheap or free games it had brought, and most games don't get a few hours of play from me in total .

Basically only games I really liked do, and DoomRL is one of the very few games that I've played for longer than that.

I also see this attitude with others here, like Malek claiming it only takes "a few games" to learn assemblies - a few games is what most players will ever play before moving to the next game...

It's basically the same "mistake" I feel the DCSS team has made, with concentrating on stuff mostly only advanced player will ever see: a ton more people will play levels 1-10 than 15-25 and it would be wise IMO to make sure these levels are as interesting as possible.

Malek Deneith:
void - while I can see some truth in your argument about balancing the game with thought of advanced players (I do admit I tend to feel this is the case at times myself), I think you're confusing skill (the normal vs advanced player scale) with free time.

I am not 'advanced' player. None at all, and I am first to admit it. Yet I have seen good deal of endgame features, simply because I have the time to spend on the game. Now I know not every one has the time - you yourself admitted you don't have it, and I understand how life can severely limit the time available for gaming and other luxuries. But that's not a problem with the game. Some games are aimed at the, excuse me the term but it feels appropiate here, 'casual' player, some do not.

Roguelikes in general tend to be aimed at players that have the time to spend playing them, or at least have some sort of commitment, meaning that they'll continue spending the time they can over and extended period of, well, time. DoomRL might have started as a game more suited for casual players (hence the original 'coffebreak' label), but has since moved way past that. The only way that it could return to that state right now is if Kornel took an axe to it and started to remove features en masse, and I doubt that'd make anyone happy. About the only thing we could do is to remove the 'coffebreak' from description, because as most agree it does not apply any longer.

void*:

--- Quote from: Malek Deneith on September 27, 2011, 07:19 ---I am not 'advanced' player. None at all, and I am first to admit it. Yet I have seen good deal of endgame features, simply because I have the time to spend on the game. Now I know not every one has the time - you yourself admitted you don't have it, and I understand how life can severely limit the time available for gaming and other luxuries. But that's not a problem with the game. Some games are aimed at the, excuse me the term but it feels appropiate here, 'casual' player, some do not.

--- End quote ---


That doesn't mean you shouldn't still keep an eye on not wasting the players' time tho- I think it's one of the most important aspects of game design: give the player a meaningful experience and don't waste their time!

Malek Deneith:
Ah, but "wasting the time" is a bit subjective, don't you think? To you, it seems, figuring out assemblies by trial or schematics is "waste of your time" and early levels don't seem to have "meaningful experience". I am on the opposite side of the scale - for me trying to figure things like assemblies, or acquiring them via schematics is fun experience, and I find enough enjoyment in early levels to justify playign the game. In the DoomRL community at large we could find people who'd agree with me, people who'd agree with you and people who'd fall somewhere in between. I don't really think it's possible to please everybody. If you keep returning to the game than I'd say you found your "meaningful experience" already, or at least some semblance of it - after all there is something in the game that makes you play it.

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