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Author Topic: Sharpshooter: Worst feat in the game?  (Read 2939 times)

rekenne

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Sharpshooter: Worst feat in the game?
« on: October 06, 2011, 11:49 »

It is mathematically worse than dualgunner. Let's say, for kicks, you could get Sharpshooter without the EE requirements.

At SoaG3 + DG, you do 2x(2d4+3) damage, for an average of 16 damage per shot action. With Sharpshooter and SoaG3, you do... 11 damage. But sharpshooter shoots faster! If you divide the 16 by 1.2, you get 13.333~. So, you still out dps. Armor? It takes 3 armor or more for sharpshooter to be better. The only enemies with 3 or higher are some of the bosses and Nightmare Demon and Nightmare Arch-Vile.

Further, 3 levels of EE are a waste on the already accurate pistols. Each level of EE gives diminishing returns, so unless you're running and shooting at something at LoS distance, the third rank doesn't matter. At 2 ranks of EE, your base accuracy with a pistol is 18. If you shoot at someone on edge of sight distance, you have a 95% chance to hit, and 98% for anywhere closer. The last level of EE gives you an extra 3% on max range shots and no bonuses elsewhere.

So. For 7 feat slots, a pistol master can have SoaG3, DG, and 3 points in EE or SoaB or Finesse, causing their DPS to be much, much higher than the sharpshooter's.

I suppose the draw is consistent knockback - But you can get that with SoaB anyway. Or just going Wiz and powermod stacking your guns for consistent knockback... but your average damage is still the same, though you need twice as many mods for it.

Oh! Just thought of a good use. The multishot uniques. ... yeaaaaaah. Relying on those is no bueno.
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Thexare

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Re: Sharpshooter: Worst feat in the game?
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2011, 13:07 »

You're also using half the ammo of a dualgunner. 10mm ammo isn't very common once you hit Hell, and Sharpshooter lets you use more inventory space for other useful things.

SoG3 isn't a good argument for consistent knockback; it's still going to vary. Furthermore, the only build guaranteed to fit that in is MBD... which exacerbates the ammo issue, in addition to being the one build that probably does not want knockback. Even a GK or no-master dualgunner doesn't really want knockback all the time, since it can and frequently will make the second bullet miss. Thus bringing down your average damage.

Additionally, Sharpshooter has the unique (among pistols) advantage of being able to use ammo chains for a drastic decrease in reload times. Instead of taking ranks in Reloader or making a pair of Speedloader Pistols, a Sharpshooter can just carry a High Power Pistol and an ammo chain. 10mm chains aren't particularly rare.

Damage isn't all. But since that's your primary concern, consider the Blaster. Exotic, but as exotics go not terribly rare. Unlimited ammo (a dualgunner would still need some for his second gun) and the rarely-resisted and somewhat armor-negating plasma damage. Add a High Power assembly (I've never seen ammo stay below max after firing it), and once you account for resistances, you'd be hard-pressed to find a pair of normal pistols that keeps up, even with mods. (Other than an Energy Pistol, but that takes three more levels to be able to make for a non-Technician)

Also, I'm not sure why you're convinced the multishot uniques are the only ones with an advantage for Sharpshooter. Name one standard or modded pistol that can keep up with a max-damage Trigun.
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rekenne

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Re: Sharpshooter: Worst feat in the game?
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2011, 14:01 »

I'm not going to say I'm the best at AoMr, but it's been my favorite game mode since before it *was* a game mode. I have beaten AoMr on HMP, and that was with no special pistols spawning. Which is really my point - I got through that game with 2 speed-loader pistols. I also never ran out of ammo, and never *do* in AoMr type games. I just take about 6 full stacks with me at all times, with some replaced by ammo chains (that I just unload), if I find them. 10mm ammo isn't common in Hell, but 600 rounds has always gotten me through. Also, I'm not sure what pistol build *wouldn't* get SoaG3. Personally, I find the benefits of Gun Kata, well, not that great. Between cover, reloading only 1 pistol, and the benefits of the speedloader, I tend to always go for SoaG3, DG, EE1, and then add in levels of Fin or SoaB. I just go for maxed damage per second and per shot. For 7 feats, 2 speed-loaders would out-dps blaster + sharpshooter, unless it's on very high armor enemies, I'm pretty sure.
Let's math it up. Blaster average damage is 19 at a speed of .32/shot.
Dual Speed-loaders with SoaG3, DG, Fin1, EE1, and SoaB1 would be 18 with about the same speed. Huh. Alright, you're right. Now. You're going to be weaker at all points up to level 7, even with the blaster, though. Now, Trigun, yeah. That'll go in favor of Sharpshooter. Good luck finding it, I suppose. I've found, when doing AoMr runs, 2 blasters and a Grammaton (edit: Since starting playing 9.9.4. So, about 25-30 games). So... if you get a special pistol or take 10 feats towards Whizkid to make one (and find the rare mod to make anything better than a speedloader)... Then, yeah, that'll outdamage dualgunner without similar advantages. If you find 2 rare pistols, though, dualgunner probably then wins out.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 15:15 by rekenne »
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Thexare

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Re: Sharpshooter: Worst feat in the game?
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2011, 14:27 »

Whizkid only takes one extra level for a Sharpshooter.

It's a basic trait for Technicians.

You can also save me some time and do the math on two speedloaders vs. one high power pistol. HP/ammo chain should reload at somewhere around the same speed, so it seems a fair comparison.

(the early game for a Sharpshooter is very weak though.)
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 14:28 by Thexare »
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Re: Sharpshooter: Worst feat in the game?
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2011, 15:12 »

[Sharpshooter] is mathematically worse than dualgunner.
Even if I take this at face value, and even if it is correct, that doesn't guarantee MSs to be worse than simply taking DG. Consider the following benefits:

  • Even a single power mod on a pistol gives you 100% knockback. Not occasional, not even consistent, but absolutely certain knockback. With the speed that SoG(3) alone allows, this makes it very easy to keep enemies out of your range. (This is probably why SoB is blocked, since it would be far too easy to be have this sort of benefit THAT easy to get.)
  • You can calculate how many bullets it'll take to kill an enemy to the letter, since there's no uncertainty involved. Not to say that this is always as important, but sometimes you'll want to time things out, and MSs can really let you do that.
  • EE(1) is usually enough to hit just about all of the time. EE(2) is probably even a bit overkill, since you get just about 98% from any viewable distance. EE(3) makes this bonus even MORE redundant, although it does make hitting enemies from outside of your vision more likely (the 49% chance will continue on until you're 15 tiles out of range). This really shines during wide open levels such as caves, arenas, and a good portion of the special levels.
  • This is the best way to conserve ammo for a pistol build, and is probably the most ammo-efficient build period. Maybe this doesn't seem like a big deal, but there are times when those Vile packs simply don't have formers with them and getting some ammo to replenish your supplies is important. If you want to 100%, using the most out of your ammo is crucial.

Really, the knockback alone sells it for me. Requiring only half the mods to finish your weapon-upgrading isn't too bad, either. Still, I'm sure it's not for everyone (just as I can't find myself using MBD because of the ridiculous ammo costs and potential reloading concerns).
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rekenne

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Re: Sharpshooter: Worst feat in the game?
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2011, 15:15 »

2 Speed-loaders vs 1 HP would be just -2 damage from the single pistol. You'd be double affected by armor, but the math works out the same as to what armor it's better or worse than.
You are right about whizkid being available at the get-go -- That is a decent power advantage. Now, if only the pistol assemblies didn't require mods I've yet to see, over the 25-30 games I've played. -_-
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rekenne

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Re: Sharpshooter: Worst feat in the game?
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2011, 15:22 »

Consistent knockback is a good point, yeah. By the time my build gets rolling, though, I'm getting pretty reliably knockback between the two rolls, but it isn't guaranteed, true.

And, yeah, I play a bit less calculated than you, based on watching your tutorials. I used to know every god damn thing about Nethack and how to price ID pretty much any common item and how to abuse every mechanic and blahblah. I just... can't play DoomRL like that, in game. Now, out of game, I do do the whole MAAATH thing.

And, yeah. I think AoMR is so fun for me because they have, IMO, the strongest early game of all builds. You out-dps a *chain gun* when you have SoaG3 and DG. Hell, I think SoaG2 + DG will. Then by endgame, you don't have AoE damage, but you can put one target down *fast*. 10 bullets per second at 2d4+5 damage each? Yeaaaaah. Armor be damned, I'm guaranteed at least 50 damage if all of those hit. On average, 80, with 2 armor foes. Aah, AoMR, so fun.

Finally: Yeah, I don't like MBd either. It seems like if you could find 2 blasters, you would be godking of DPS, but...
... you know, what, no, you wouldn't be. You'd have to take 2 levels of finesse, on top of your 2 levels in TH just to get to a roughly equal point to just dualgunner standard. Eesh. Maybe I just don't like *any* pistol master feat.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 15:29 by rekenne »
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Ander Hammer

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Re: Sharpshooter: Worst feat in the game?
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2011, 21:30 »

The fun in pistol master traits for me is the way they change how I play. I take Gun Kata to take a break from optimal, sensible tactical defense in order to run in, dodge like a fool, and dance-gun things to death; I take Bullet Dancer because I'm stupid and like wasting ammo gunning things down in a spray of overkill, and also turning my build into a quirky rapidfire for as long as my ammochains hold out; and I take Sharpshooter because mathing is stupid and I like knowing I'm never going to hit a monster for 5 damage when I get into a pinch.
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S.K. Ren

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Re: Sharpshooter: Worst feat in the game?
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2011, 00:12 »

SoG3, EE3, MSs: Un-modded Pistol(2d4)
11 Minimum/Maximum Damage
2% Deviation(miss)
0.40s Fire Speed
1 shot
DPS: 27.5; 11 per bullet; 2.5 bullets /s

SoG3, SoB3, DG: Un-modded Pistol(2d4) x2
16 Minimum Damage/28 Maxumum Damage
5-64% Deviation
0.48 Fire Speed
2 shots
DPS: 33.33-58.33; 8-14 per bullet; 4.16 bullets /s


Clearly DG builds out class single gun builds in terms of pure DPR but start stacking mods and you will see MSs look better and better as each power mod adds 2 DPR per bullet to MSs but only 1 per bullet for DG. This is especially important when dealing with heavily armored enemies. Arch-Viles with 2 armor mean 2 less damage per bullet that means. MSs has a DPR of 27.5-(2.5*2)= 22.5 and DG (26.66-(4.16*2))-(46.66-(4.16*2)= 25.01-50.01.

Edit: Ok, seriously even though the math is right, it shouldn't be. I think DG needs its fire delay nerfed as right now it's ridiculously over powered. 1.4 or 1.5 sounds about right. MSs is currently good for two things only: Knockback and ammo conservation and honestly, I feel knockback is overrated and unless you're playing Ao100 (In which case ammo should be plentiful until you can a) Mod Nanomanufacture or b) find a blaster (or two)) Ammo conservation isn't that big a deal unless you're going for YAAM.
 
Attached is an Excel Worksheet I made for calculating Pistol damage info. It may be missing some things but it has 99% of the important stuff.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2011, 02:34 by S.K. Ren »
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rekenne

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Re: Sharpshooter: Worst feat in the game?
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2011, 02:15 »

SoaG3 + DG is .48s per shot, not .6
1.2 * .4 = 0.48

Also, AVs only have 2 armor, not 4.
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S.K. Ren

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Re: Sharpshooter: Worst feat in the game?
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2011, 02:20 »

Ah, my bad on the armor but you can see where I was going.

Also my bad on the DG being 1.2 not 1.5 like I had previously stated. I must have been thinking of MBD or something. Ill edit my post above.
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rekenne

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Re: Sharpshooter: Worst feat in the game?
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2011, 02:26 »

I do -- I just accounted for that. Until you take very highly modded or unique pistols into account, DG equals or betters Sharpshooter at armor 0-2. And only a handful of things have better than that.

Honestly, I think the better phrasing of the argument would be DPS per trait, where Sharpshooter would show sharp disadvantages.

Though. I do agree, it sounds like a cool trait idea, I just think the requirements are a bit too steep. Not requiring DG does make sense, given how strong that would be. I just honestly wonder if I could *get* to Sharpshooter, in an AoMR game, given the levels you wouldn't have your raised DPS from Sharpshooter would be about when you start encountering late game enemies for the first time. Your first few Revenants and Barons tend to be tough on AoMR as is -- With no second gun to bolster you... ow.
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S.K. Ren

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Re: Sharpshooter: Worst feat in the game?
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2011, 02:39 »

Are you talking HMP or U cause on HMP AoMr is cake. U starts to bring difficulties, namely things don't want to die when you're used to if you've only played HMP.

SoG->SoG->SoG->EE->EE->EE->MSs

Now I either go WK->WK->Fin

or I go HR->HR->DM depending on my luck with mods. If you managed to start with AT mods you get a free speedloader :D I suggest T first for the 0.85 multiplier.

Edit: Assuming you're a technician.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2011, 02:41 by S.K. Ren »
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rekenne

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Re: Sharpshooter: Worst feat in the game?
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2011, 17:00 »

HMP - I've not done much playing of UV. I've never really found it that fun. I'll play a UV normal game, but I stick to either HMP or HNTR for challenges. The former for easier ones, the latter for things like Ao100 or AoMs. At least, at the moment.
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Stormlock

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Re: Sharpshooter: Worst feat in the game?
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2011, 12:44 »

Don't forget another enemy type that shws up with (way) more than 3 armor: Anything that picked up armor. A hell baron that lives about 3 times as long as it should because it had a red/blue armor and a medpack usually ends up burning through more of my healthpacks and armor than the previous 3 levels combined. And I seem to run into at least one such enemy per game.

I think Sharpshooter is the best of the traits honestly. The knockback is just that good, especially on a heavily modded pistol that can fire excessively fast. Putting aside the fact that you can easily bounce 2 enemies out of your line of sight endlessly, you can also drive enemies into lava or acid pools to kill them, stack corpses with certainty, and in some situations move enemies into eachother's line of fire. Also, as soon as you hit SoaG 4 (And of course it'll be your first trait when it's available) you can juggle nearly twice as many enemies out of sight. (Minus the reload time.)

Put another way, if Sharpshooter had the same DPS as Dualgunner, but also left you with:
An extra weapon slot (Different pistol, ammochain, whatever)
Guaranteed knockback
WAY better ammo efficiency, for damage per shot, accuracy, and never firing at a dead enemy (extra slots for phases/medkits/etc. effectively.)

It would be completely overpowered.

Another factor to consider is that technician seems like the only class where you wouldn't want your advanced trait right away. So you usually end up with your master trait a level or two earlier than a scout or marine would. Other tradeoffs go with that obviously, but just another reason why a pure dps race isn't a good way to look at this.
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