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Sharpshooter: Worst feat in the game?

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rekenne:
It is mathematically worse than dualgunner. Let's say, for kicks, you could get Sharpshooter without the EE requirements.

At SoaG3 + DG, you do 2x(2d4+3) damage, for an average of 16 damage per shot action. With Sharpshooter and SoaG3, you do... 11 damage. But sharpshooter shoots faster! If you divide the 16 by 1.2, you get 13.333~. So, you still out dps. Armor? It takes 3 armor or more for sharpshooter to be better. The only enemies with 3 or higher are some of the bosses and Nightmare Demon and Nightmare Arch-Vile.

Further, 3 levels of EE are a waste on the already accurate pistols. Each level of EE gives diminishing returns, so unless you're running and shooting at something at LoS distance, the third rank doesn't matter. At 2 ranks of EE, your base accuracy with a pistol is 18. If you shoot at someone on edge of sight distance, you have a 95% chance to hit, and 98% for anywhere closer. The last level of EE gives you an extra 3% on max range shots and no bonuses elsewhere.

So. For 7 feat slots, a pistol master can have SoaG3, DG, and 3 points in EE or SoaB or Finesse, causing their DPS to be much, much higher than the sharpshooter's.

I suppose the draw is consistent knockback - But you can get that with SoaB anyway. Or just going Wiz and powermod stacking your guns for consistent knockback... but your average damage is still the same, though you need twice as many mods for it.

Oh! Just thought of a good use. The multishot uniques. ... yeaaaaaah. Relying on those is no bueno.

Thexare:
You're also using half the ammo of a dualgunner. 10mm ammo isn't very common once you hit Hell, and Sharpshooter lets you use more inventory space for other useful things.

SoG3 isn't a good argument for consistent knockback; it's still going to vary. Furthermore, the only build guaranteed to fit that in is MBD... which exacerbates the ammo issue, in addition to being the one build that probably does not want knockback. Even a GK or no-master dualgunner doesn't really want knockback all the time, since it can and frequently will make the second bullet miss. Thus bringing down your average damage.

Additionally, Sharpshooter has the unique (among pistols) advantage of being able to use ammo chains for a drastic decrease in reload times. Instead of taking ranks in Reloader or making a pair of Speedloader Pistols, a Sharpshooter can just carry a High Power Pistol and an ammo chain. 10mm chains aren't particularly rare.

Damage isn't all. But since that's your primary concern, consider the Blaster. Exotic, but as exotics go not terribly rare. Unlimited ammo (a dualgunner would still need some for his second gun) and the rarely-resisted and somewhat armor-negating plasma damage. Add a High Power assembly (I've never seen ammo stay below max after firing it), and once you account for resistances, you'd be hard-pressed to find a pair of normal pistols that keeps up, even with mods. (Other than an Energy Pistol, but that takes three more levels to be able to make for a non-Technician)

Also, I'm not sure why you're convinced the multishot uniques are the only ones with an advantage for Sharpshooter. Name one standard or modded pistol that can keep up with a max-damage Trigun.

rekenne:
I'm not going to say I'm the best at AoMr, but it's been my favorite game mode since before it *was* a game mode. I have beaten AoMr on HMP, and that was with no special pistols spawning. Which is really my point - I got through that game with 2 speed-loader pistols. I also never ran out of ammo, and never *do* in AoMr type games. I just take about 6 full stacks with me at all times, with some replaced by ammo chains (that I just unload), if I find them. 10mm ammo isn't common in Hell, but 600 rounds has always gotten me through. Also, I'm not sure what pistol build *wouldn't* get SoaG3. Personally, I find the benefits of Gun Kata, well, not that great. Between cover, reloading only 1 pistol, and the benefits of the speedloader, I tend to always go for SoaG3, DG, EE1, and then add in levels of Fin or SoaB. I just go for maxed damage per second and per shot. For 7 feats, 2 speed-loaders would out-dps blaster + sharpshooter, unless it's on very high armor enemies, I'm pretty sure.
Let's math it up. Blaster average damage is 19 at a speed of .32/shot.
Dual Speed-loaders with SoaG3, DG, Fin1, EE1, and SoaB1 would be 18 with about the same speed. Huh. Alright, you're right. Now. You're going to be weaker at all points up to level 7, even with the blaster, though. Now, Trigun, yeah. That'll go in favor of Sharpshooter. Good luck finding it, I suppose. I've found, when doing AoMr runs, 2 blasters and a Grammaton (edit: Since starting playing 9.9.4. So, about 25-30 games). So... if you get a special pistol or take 10 feats towards Whizkid to make one (and find the rare mod to make anything better than a speedloader)... Then, yeah, that'll outdamage dualgunner without similar advantages. If you find 2 rare pistols, though, dualgunner probably then wins out.

Thexare:
Whizkid only takes one extra level for a Sharpshooter.

It's a basic trait for Technicians.

You can also save me some time and do the math on two speedloaders vs. one high power pistol. HP/ammo chain should reload at somewhere around the same speed, so it seems a fair comparison.

(the early game for a Sharpshooter is very weak though.)

Game Hunter:

--- Quote from: rekenne on October 06, 2011, 11:49 ---[Sharpshooter] is mathematically worse than dualgunner.
--- End quote ---
Even if I take this at face value, and even if it is correct, that doesn't guarantee MSs to be worse than simply taking DG. Consider the following benefits:


* Even a single power mod on a pistol gives you 100% knockback. Not occasional, not even consistent, but absolutely certain knockback. With the speed that SoG(3) alone allows, this makes it very easy to keep enemies out of your range. (This is probably why SoB is blocked, since it would be far too easy to be have this sort of benefit THAT easy to get.)
* You can calculate how many bullets it'll take to kill an enemy to the letter, since there's no uncertainty involved. Not to say that this is always as important, but sometimes you'll want to time things out, and MSs can really let you do that.
* EE(1) is usually enough to hit just about all of the time. EE(2) is probably even a bit overkill, since you get just about 98% from any viewable distance. EE(3) makes this bonus even MORE redundant, although it does make hitting enemies from outside of your vision more likely (the 49% chance will continue on until you're 15 tiles out of range). This really shines during wide open levels such as caves, arenas, and a good portion of the special levels.
* This is the best way to conserve ammo for a pistol build, and is probably the most ammo-efficient build period. Maybe this doesn't seem like a big deal, but there are times when those Vile packs simply don't have formers with them and getting some ammo to replenish your supplies is important. If you want to 100%, using the most out of your ammo is crucial.
Really, the knockback alone sells it for me. Requiring only half the mods to finish your weapon-upgrading isn't too bad, either. Still, I'm sure it's not for everyone (just as I can't find myself using MBD because of the ridiculous ammo costs and potential reloading concerns).

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