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[Solarn]

I've been having trouble playing AoMr in the new version and today it hit me why: in 0.9.9.4 I usually got past the Hellgate with the help of the items and experience from Hell's Armory. In the new version, not only can the Armory not spawn before the Hellgate, but the Gate itself comes 6 dlevels earlier, which means about 2-3 character levels depending on luck. I usually play Technician and go for MSs, since in the previous version, that was a pretty solid build. In the new version, however, it makes me severely underleveled because I don't dare attempt the Arena with only one pistol and the Chained Court is worthless without the Arena completion, because the mods are inaccessible. The Wall was always flat-out impossible, but with the new level progression, having to leave it out hurts much more. I'm lucky if I'm level 5 when I reach the Bruiser Brothers, who are of course just as strong as they were.

Why did you make non-Dualgunner pistol-only builds impossible, dev team? And if you did, why did you make a pistol master trait that forbids it? This smacks of bad design. And regardless of all this the difficulty of AoMr indicated in the menu should really be bumped up to at least Medium.

[Chronos]

???
look at this post mortem:
http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,5023.0.html

This is a partial win with a Sharpshooter build.

[Sirdec]

Start game -> SoG
Make Speedloader Pistol (Startscum may be needed)...
SoG
in arena get SoG, unless unlucky spawns it's foolproof. Against caco it's shoot-shoot-shoot then dodge if no cover
Save the blue armor for the arena master.
Get eagle eye if you feel you miss too much/otherwise Whizkid * 2 preparing for the P-modded Tactical Armor.
Do Chained Court : ok this one can be trickier.

WIN.

[Game Hunter]

Why did you make non-Dualgunner pistol-only builds impossible, dev team?

Funny, it doesn't LOOK impossible. Even if this is one of our best players, he still pulled it off on N! without a Trigun until floor 18. I think you might be a victim of some flawed assumptions. For example:

...In the new version, however, [playing an MSs build] makes me severely underleveled because I don't dare attempt the Arena with only one pistol and the Chained Court is worthless without the Arena completion, because the mods are inaccessible....

Hell's Arena has gotten a good deal harder with new AI, but imps, demons, and cacodemons haven't had a rewrite since 0994 (leaving only third-wave HKs and Barons to be the new challenge). And, correct me if I'm wrong, but I have always found SoG(3) to be superior to SoG(2) + DG as a matter of building your traits up. (I've written at length why this is the case, although the post would be pretty old by now: in short, SoG(3) gives you slightly more DPS; it allows you almost the same firing speed as firing two shots with Dualgunner, but grants you the chance to react in between; and you can swap for a pistol from the prepared slot instead of having to reload every six shots, giving you even more extra time.) So really,  there should be no problem attempting Hell's Arena with a single pistol.

Even if you don't feel up to snuff on that special level, Chained Court is by no means worthless due to the unavailability of the mods: there's still a pretty good amount of experience waiting to be plundered (and, if I'm not mistaken, the problem you're expressing is related to lack of experience). On HNTR it's not a lot, but it's certainly free (that is, gained with no loss of health/supplies) given the amount of ammo and zerk lying around, and getting the cacodemons to come out is simply a matter of shooting down the doors. On HMP/UV it's even better experience and killing the HKs/Barons is actually exploitable right now, so it's still basically free.

I guess I'm not so sure what the problem is. Sharpshooter is meant to be a difficult build because of the lack of Dualgunner, but I wouldn't consider it particularly inferior. Personally I don't know if Bruisers are too difficult with clvl5 pistol builds, so this will be something to look into. I'd say you're definitely right about the challenge rating on the select screen: Marksmanship has, in general, become harder (especially with lost soul and revenant resistances), so it's a good idea to bump up the suggested difficulty.

[Matt_S]

Wait, revenants and lost souls have bullet resistance?  That explains why the lost souls in Hell's Arena were so frustrating, and why City of Skulls was such a pain (thank goodness I didn't encounter any revenants).  Huh, and lost souls also have 75% fire resistance?  That explains why it takes so many staff uses to kill them even though I thought it should kill them in one hit.  You learn something new every day.

[AlterAsc]

I have only one complaint - that is, Anomoly on N!.It looks almost the same as Hellgate on N! and there's not enough time to find phase device.It killed me on AoMr three times until i stopped trying.That was some whining from me, but any advice what to do there?

[Solarn]

Okay, so yeah, I overreacted a bit, I managed to get to Hell with a MSs build since I wrote that post, but I feel that it depends too heavily on luck and not just the normal luck of not spawning next to a monster that can kill me immediately or encountering Arachnotron caves. The only times I managed to get beyond the Arena was if it spawned on dlvl 3 instead of 2. And as you said, startscumming for a speedloader is almost certainly a must.

[Gamer-man]

I play AoMr over half my play throughs since i love using pistols, i don't think MSs is any worse than the other two, especially not before cybie (gun kata gets a free win vs cyberdemon).  At HMP+, i only do the arena if it spawns on lvl 3, it isn't a huge problem either way though, chained court is still plenty of xp either way (without even killing the caco or hell knights).  On hellgate one bruiser brother should die before you ever reach the door without you taking any damage, the other probably won't hit you enough to make you burn a health pack, and a large health globe should be left over to heal up that damage.  I also never reset my play through, i go with the run i have, i win about 1/3 on HNTR and 1/4 on HMP, i havn't played enough UV to suggest a proportion i win.

As long as we are on the topic, GH, can you fix unchained court?  right now the vile runs all the way to the left, and is in range of like 2-3 people to revive, the rest can be killed safely such that there is no danger to you while fighting the arch vile.  it trivialises the fight if you arn't in any danger.

[Matt_S]

As long as we are on the topic, GH, can you fix unchained court?  right now the vile runs all the way to the left, and is in range of like 2-3 people to revive, the rest can be killed safely such that there is no danger to you while fighting the arch vile.  it trivialises the fight if you arn't in any danger.

I remember in a 0.9.9.5 beta there was a time when the Arena Master was pretty much wiping the floor with me every time I fought him.  But I don't know if he was subtly nerfed at some point or if I just adapted to be able to beat him; my memory's kind of fuzzy about why I even found him to be tougher.

[MaiZure]

I remember in a 0.9.9.5 beta there was a time when the Arena Master was pretty much wiping the floor with me every time I fought him.  But I don't know if he was subtly nerfed at some point or if I just adapted to be able to beat him; my memory's kind of fuzzy about why I even found him to be tougher.

Vile damage changed from plasma to fire in .995...may have affected the Arena Master

[Matt_S]

I remember after I started getting my ass kicked, I switched over to using blue armor against the Arena Master for the fire resistance to see if that helped.  That's probably why I got back to doing well against him.

[2DeviationsOut]

I do admit that non-dualgunner builds can be harder to get off the ground, but Sharpshooter has a ton of offensive potential when you start modding your weapons. I was originally going to go for a storm bolter, but once I found the Trigun I decided to just use that. Many of my games are based off of having heavily modded equipment, and once you stack max damage on a F-Mod Storm Bolter things get ridiculous, with 1d9(maxed)x8 + 5*8(5x SoG)=112 damage per volley, with nearly perfect accuracy. However, on my Marksmanship Diamond game I didn't find any firestorm mods, unfortunately.

The most important thing in any challenge game is to have a gameplan sketched out before you start playing, and being able to quickly adopt your strategies to fit the situation.

[Klear]

The most important thing in any challenge game is to have a gameplan sketched out before you start playing, and being able to quickly adopt your strategies to fit the situation.

Heh, I was once going for ammochain and needed just one more level to get it. Then I found two unique pistols and decided it's too good chance to pass up and completely changed my build to dualgunner =)

At least the triggerhappy traits didn't go to waste thanks to grammaton cleric beretta, and AFAIK, the master trait (the name escapes me right now, and I didn't get it in the end, since I decided to skip a few levels) would probably give it the triggerhapy bonus twice - once for chain weapon and once for pistol.

[Pricklyman]

On my recent run (which wasn't going for MSs mind you...but still...) I managed to get up to The Mortuary (and fail miserably there) with just two speedloader pistols.

Mind you I did have Bullet Dance, which pretty much makes those pistols really OP. (Since you need both SoG 2 and SoB 3 to get it...that's an extra 6 damage if you get SoG 3...per shot...for a max of 14 (2d4+6) and there are 6 shots, which make it really really powerful.)

So yeah, I don't really think AoMr is harder than before...

[Sambojin]

The various tweaks to AI make finding enemies a little harder than they were before, but it also spreads them out a little more. Whilst at the start of the level you'll find packs of enemies, if you wait about 50 turns after entering the level you'll mostly be able to pick them off in ones and twos, which is perfect for pistol builds of any kind. "Standard" pistol builds (non-master-trait ones) actually seem a little easier these days, simply due to the built in abilities of the various classes and the huge range of modding abilities available. Getting an instant speedloader as a techy (or twin tech-modded pistols) trivialises much of the weapon choice problems for AoMr. Even an ag or bulk modded pistol makes things a lot easier for any class. But you specifically mention MSs as a problem? Constant, fairly quick, very accurate damage with the ability to mod your pistols out the wazoo? You also have the ability to use medi-kits in 0.1secs, which coupled with the excellent ammo/damage potential of MSs allows you to pea-shoot your way through stuff quite easily. Pew-Pew-Pew-medikit-Pew-Pew-Pew-reload: repeat as necessary. Just stock up a heap in health and armour, you shouldn't have too many ammo problems.

If you're having problems, could you mention more specifically where you think the problem lays? More so in playstyle problems (not doing enough damage, taking too much, not accurate enough, inventory management?) than a specific level so I can suggest some pointers. I haven't found AoMr much harder, just a bit different, more due to AI changes over the versions than anything. In general I've felt more powerful as a pistol user in 0.9.9.5 than I did in earlier versions, no matter the buld/character choice.