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[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Okay, most of you read the topic, and were like "WHAT THE HELL?". Yes, I'd like to remind you that this is not a DoomRL-only forum ;]. I'm currently throwing around many ideas in my mind, one of them is for a small graphical game. I have made several restrictions to myself tough, mainly because of my lack of skills in many areas, but also due to constraining time needed to complete the given project.

Okay, so to all people that thought now "IS HE OUT OF HIS MIND?" I'd like to thank for reading this far :).

So one of the ideas is a space game. I also play around with ideas for a 4X strategy, or other pure strategies, but not in this post. I always wanted to make a space game centered around one spaceship. And although a Frontier-remake is among my dreams, a 3D combat simulator is unaviable to me as yet due to the lack of good 3D programming knowledge. That's why I thought I might go for 2D space combat.

That presents a challenge tough. IMHO the main problem with space games with combat mode is a repetetive and boring combat mode :). I'd like to avoid that as much as possible, especialy that the target idea of the game would involve having random combat encounters.

Can 2D space combat be not boring? Do you have any ideas how cold that look like? Please share!

P.S.1 - 2D means not "no 3D graphics" -- it means avoiding writing 3D collision detection, and 3D AI. Also it means that the interface should be fairly simple.

P.S.2 - Combat should rather be tactical, and should depend on ships configuration. Turn-based is also an option as is "SPACE - pause and give orders".

P.S.3 - The intended gameplay would be random, with missions/quests, and with a storyline.

P.S.4 - I don't say I'll work at it, I'm just looking for various ideas. DoomRL's development will be unaffected by any ideas that I have, for I wish to bring DoomRL to 1.0.0 before seriously devoting myself to any other project.

P.S.5 - I know that this post is a somehow risky test on my behalf, to see if the ASCII people here are willing to participate in brainstorming about a game of completely different type. If you feel offended by that, please ignore this topic :). I'm sorry :).

P.S.6 - Yes, I know about Star Control :-P.

[Jered Cain]

I'll give my thoughts on the PSes first.  Pardon all the Star Trek game references.

P.S. 1 - So graphics like Star Trek Armada, which was a 3D RTS that was, for all intents and purposes, 2D.

P.S. 2 - Tactical and depending on configuration, like, oh, Starfleet command?  Also, pause-based like Baldur's Gate, I like it.

P.S. 3 - Random, with missions, and a storyline.  Hm.  Can we choose which missions out of a posting, perhaps?

P.S. 4 - Well, I'm giving my ideas here, so, blah.

P.S. 5 - No risk, no reward.  Go for it.

P.S. 6 - Good for you.

[Derek]

No time right now to give the reply I'd like to give, but take a look at this game when you have the chance, Kornel:

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/digital_eel/Weird_worlds/1.htm

It's essentially what Star Control would be if turned into a 15-minute coffeebreak type game.  Although that may be giving the game a bit more credit than it's due, since it doesn't have the kind of charm that SC has, nor is it random enough to sustain my interest for very long.  But still!

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

P.S. 3 - Random, with missions, and a storyline.  Hm.  Can we choose which missions out of a posting, perhaps?

Except for the combat and flight model it would be very simmilar to Elite/Frontier, but with a lot more interesting missions and global random plot.

No time right now to give the reply I'd like to give, but take a look at this game when you have the chance, Kornel:

Ok, I'll take a look at the demo when it downloads. I would be VERY interested in your full reply when you have the time tough :)

[Santiago Zapata]

Hope my ideas have a room here, and you find them useful

First off: Yes, the overall idea sounds nice... hope you can team with a good artist to complete the requirements for a game of this kind.

About 2D space combat.... I think it would be nice to have a squad and issue orders to your lancemates; different customizable spacecraft is a need, including different sized space fighters, heavy armed-highly maneuverable combat mecha, and possibly personal scale suits for emergency.

Also different kind of areas including asteroid fields, mined fields or areas near big mass bodies (space stations, orbitals, ringworlds, moons, planets) that affect the zero gravity environment making for more variation between fights.

A campaign schema over the fights where each combat you win or lose affects the overall status of the system is nice...

Cant think on anything more tonight... I am tired :P

[DaEezT]

I'll use Master of Orion 2 as a reference here.
MoO2 was a 4X game and not centered around a monthership like Star Control, ships are just units but they could be configured.
You could give the player a monthership like in SC and make it possible for smaller combat ships to dock on it (like in SC) and make every ship configurable like in MoO2.
Combat would take place on a 2D playing field where the enemeis (ships/planets/spacestations) start on one end like in MoO2 and the player's mother ship starts on the other end and the player can deploy the docked fighters in a preparation phase prior to combat.
After that the combat would then be more or less identical to MoO2.

MoO 3 introduced real time combat with fleets and formations and even though it had 3D graphics the combat took place on a 2D map. But the whole fleet combat idea doesn't work if you want to make the game centered around 1 ship.

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

First off: Yes, the overall idea sounds nice... hope you can team with a good artist to complete the requirements for a game of this kind.

Some parts of the game will use 3D rendering, those I will do by myself. I will probably also need some 2D art, and here I will seek help :/.

Also different kind of areas including asteroid fields, mined fields or areas near big mass bodies (space stations, orbitals, ringworlds, moons, planets) that affect the zero gravity environment making for more variation between fights.
A campaign schema over the fights where each combat you win or lose affects the overall status of the system is nice...

Don't worry, for the "startegic/RPG" part I have tons of ideas. I'm confused only on the combat system :)

[Adral]

I am not really inspired right now, but I'll throw some suggestions of things you might want to take a look at.

From what I can take of your post, Kornel, maybe some kind of variant of a RL in space might do the trick. Tactical turn-based combat, potentially unlimited customization, etc. As I see it, perhaps some kind of Gearhead in space. Keep in mind that if you want to do graphics, you can add them. It just means you would make us ASCII people sad :P.

If you want to make something different from a RL, you might take inspiration from Flatspace. As far as I can remember, it's a real-time game with diifferent ships models, different ships configurations, random missions, and even trading capabilities. It has 3D models but 2D space, just what you were asking about.

And that's all for now. If I ever come with real ideas for your game, I'll post them :P.

Note1: link to the Gearhead page, for those who don't know it
 http://www.geocities.com/pyrrho12/programming/gearhead/

Note2: link to Flatspace
http://www.cornutopia.co.uk/lif/

EDIT: Meh, I didn't read that last post. I'll try to get some ideas for the combat part then:P

[Igor Savin]

I'll start up with references...

Couldn't resist temptation to sleep while playing "Weird Worlds". Horribly boring stuff.

I'd recommend two other games, first of which is one of my all-time coffee-break favs:

"Galactic Fighter"
http://members.fortunecity.com/beyond_eternity/

It has rather curious ship management system... simple yet captivating.


The second one is more of an epic adventure (think Star Control that relies on random content; less of an adventure, more of a strategy; great feel of "My ship, my fortress")

It's a classical game, but now it is in process of getting revived. Get both the game and the patch.

http://www.ironseed.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=5&sid=5b72e5d4bd5e106b47c9bed6ad1bb7c4


And the last one, IMHO, absolutely the best in its' genre is Space Rangers 2. It's out in English already and you can find it over bittorrent; though it's something like 1 DVD large...

What it's all about:
http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/space-rangers-2-dominators/697188p1.html

It has exactly the kind of combat you want - simple, fast and configuration-based.


Now for the combat ideas...
As a matter of fact, you don't really need battlefield for space combat. Imagine GearHead without terrain. It doesn't make any sense then; all that matters is the distance between you and your enemies; so all the movement you need is either "Advance" or "Retreat".

"UFO: Enemy Unknown" air combat is a good example of how "strategy-fuelled" combats should occur (the ones that are won or lost before all the shooting begins).

Of course, there should be additional twists to make things fun... Think DoomRL - of the most captivating interest there is uncertainity - you don't know will this lever heal you or kill you, what kind of a horrible monster awaits behind this or that door; is there some magnificent reward for you on this level. You simply never know until you try.

I wonder, how this might be achieved in space... Since you have no levers, no doors and no stuff floating around... it's all up to what appears in random encounter, and after you know what have you met, there's nothing more to be thrilled about - it's just one ship shooting into another ship till one of them blows up (MOO? Anybody remembers any *tactical* combat in MOO?).

You should take away that sense of certainity from the players. Make guns jam. Make crew go mad and start slaughtering each other for no apparent reason. Make weird aliens appear out of nowhere and begin destroying everything that moves. Force player to expect everything - at any moment - and give him ways to cope with it. Make each combat matter - like it is in DoomRL, where you can easily be reduced to 43% HP on the very first level with slim chances of survival on the second, if not careful.

But what are your instruments in such a game?..

First of all, I think there should be detailed scheme of ship systems. You can get all the important nodes damaged, from weapons and shields to lifesupport and engines. Divide you crew as you seem fit, repair one node over another, set the work mode (easy, normal, insane) - but look out for the morale.

Crew should be used not only for the repairs. Most probably they won't improve reloading times or maneuvrability... but they can help AC (point-defense turrets!).

Okay, I'm just throwing in random ideas, and not the ones you most probably need. I'll try to return back on topic.

Since there's nothing so special in open space, "external" view should be as simple as possible. Maybe some kind of a "chess board with spaceships". Main attention should be given to the internal part (how the ships are handled, what they consist of) - the more detail there will be, the better. I'd hate simple "HP over HP, Damage over Damage" bash.

In order to keep things fun, you can either make combats quick and furious (which is easier, and can actually work) or slow, full of well thought-about choices and long meditations... but this will need a complicated game mechanism (think wargames\board games).


...I'll write a follow-up post ASAP, where I'll try to be more specific...

[Igor Savin]

Now I'll try to move more slowly...

If we look at space combat, we should separate 3 main parts of it:

1) Moving around (ship interacts with environment).
2) Attacking (ship interacts with another ship).
3) Acting (ship interacts with itself).

As I have already said, Movement part isn't all that important or interesting in space. Maybe the only important (gameplay-wise) aspect of it is "tactics" setting like in DoomRL - you can choose between "Careful" and "Aggressive" styles of flight. Of course, there might be fuel, and it might be the part of tactics just as well - for an example, if fuel is expensive, it might be a valuable resouce which use should be strictly limited. Then you can have things like afterburners; and the "hellrunning" kind of dodge tactics enters new dimension (if you move, you spend fuel, but gain better chances of evading enemy attacks... save up fuel (guaranteed) or hull (unguaranteed)?)

Of course, you can spice things up with stuff like Nebulas that slow ships down, Blackholes that start sucking you in if you are passing by, Vortices that teleport you across the field, Meteorites that fly by, causing damage... Maybe even various rubbish do generate, including even shipwreck capsules, that might work like levers - there might be fuel, shield battery refill, or ticking bomb inside (or swarm of alien raider ships)...

Technical realisation is not important here. I fail to see how much will the choice between pixel-based or tile-based board will impact gameplay.


There's nothing special about Attacking as well. Weapon shoot, weapon hit or miss; if we're lucky, weapon heats up and jams. Ability to make called shots like in GearHead would be great. It might be interesting to make Star Control-like kind of weaponry, where guns are completely different, not only colour and damage wise. Something like Druuge's gun. Something like Chmmrm sentinels. Something like Thraddash afterburner.



It's Acting where we have the most freedom and are capable of inventing totally new stuff. Balance energy spending between shield recharge and laser build-up. Drug your crew for increased performance and risk of psyche problems. Mix up fuel with water - for economy with the price of damaged engines and reduced speed. Have your ship nodes modded by your engineer - for few more points of everything and chance of it suddenly breaking up in the time of need. Have your crew revolt and be subjugated - either bloodbathed, or bribed, or convinced (takes time - which may prove fatal in battle). Have your ship invaded (mini-game "DeadCold" included). Allocate your board CPU powers between Scanning, Targetting, Point-Defense Turret control, Repair, Crew Psychoanalysis and Treatment...

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Ok, I'll take a look at the references. But I took a look at Wierd Worlds and I see a way to use a similar combat system, and make it fun :).

Now for the combat ideas...
As a matter of fact, you don't really need battlefield for space combat. Imagine GearHead without terrain. It doesn't make any sense then; all that matters is the distance between you and your enemies; so all the movement you need is either "Advance" or "Retreat".
"UFO: Enemy Unknown" air combat is a good example of how "strategy-fuelled" combats should occur (the ones that are won or lost before all the shooting begins).

True, but it wasn't much exciting wasn't it? It was also meaningless almost -- you could judge by the look at it what would exactly happen. It had a big advantage tough -- it was fast. But it was way too deadly for a single ship game.

First of all, I think there should be detailed scheme of ship systems. You can get all the important nodes damaged, from weapons and shields to lifesupport and engines. Divide you crew as you seem fit, repair one node over another, set the work mode (easy, normal, insane) - but look out for the morale.

True, but we can't overcomplicate matters. One of the biggest things that made DoomRL successful was that it was very easy to learn. I want that in the space game too. But yes, I want multiple options. Here's the solution -- A basic ship that you get in the beginning doesn't have much controls. But the more upgrades you buy, the better computer you install on it, the bigger ship you buy, the more ways to influence combat you have. This way the interface complicates gradualy while the player learns the controls.

Okay, I'm just throwing in random ideas, and not the ones you most probably need. I'll try to return back on topic.

Quite on the contrary! -- I guess now most of the forum will finaly know WHY you are Chaoslord ranked ;].

the ships are handled, what they consist of) - the more detail there will be, the better. I'd hate simple "HP over HP, Damage over Damage" bash.

You forget about user friendlyness here. But as I wrote above -- there's a way to get around it :).

As I have already said, Movement part isn't all that important or interesting in space.

I can almost agree on that paragraph, except you forget about one vital aspect -- facing. Why is it important? Gun mountings -- startegy in space combat can be outmaneuvring your enemy by getting into the Arc of fire where he has the worst guns. On the other hand you try to get into a place where you can face the enemy with your main cannons. This would be especialy important in case of large, unmaneuvereable capital ships.

Of course, you can spice things up with stuff like Nebulas that slow ships down, Blackholes that start sucking you in if you are passing by, Vortices that teleport you across the field, Meteorites that fly by, causing damage... Maybe even various rubbish do generate, including even shipwreck capsules, that might work like levers - there might be fuel, shield battery refill, or ticking bomb inside (or swarm of alien raider ships)...

This is very unrealistic considering the scale of the fight. And although I take a lot of liberty in case of realism (like the fact that considering relativity of stadard space travel speed most ships would fire at eachother form distances where the ship couldn't even be one pixel sized) I'd like the game not to turn into a child's game-like. I will try to preserve some serious mood there ;].

There's nothing special about Attacking as well. Weapon shoot, weapon hit or miss; if we're lucky, weapon heats up and jams. Ability to make called shots like in GearHead would be great. It might be interesting to make Star Control-like kind of weaponry, where guns are completely different, not only colour and damage wise. Something like Druuge's gun. Something like Chmmrm sentinels. Something like Thraddash afterburner.

Agreed. But one aspect that needs to be remebered is that there are guns against capital ships, and guns against fighters.

It's Acting where we have the most freedom and are capable of inventing totally new stuff. Balance energy spending between shield recharge and laser build-up.

X-Wing FTW!

.... nothing less from the Igor I know ;].

[Igor Savin]

"Ok, I'll take a look at the references. But I took a look at Wierd Worlds and I see a way to use a similar combat system, and make it fun :)".

Hmm, it was Gombrowicz who said that he didn't learn as much from the classical literature, as he did from the bad one..

"True, but it wasn't much exciting wasn't it?"

Yeah, they barely happened.


"One of the biggest things that made DoomRL successful was that it was very easy to learn"

...to learn, but not to master!


"A basic ship that you get in the beginning doesn't have much controls. But the more upgrades you buy, the better computer you install on it, the bigger ship you buy, the more ways to influence combat you have"

Similar system worked well for GTA: SA, where "new features" were introduced as the plot moved on. Yes, that sounds like a good idea.


"I guess now most of the forum will finaly know WHY you are Chaoslord ranked ;]."

...since you can't resist my charming gaze!


"you forget about one vital aspect -- facing. Why is it important? Gun mountings -- startegy in space combat can be outmaneuvring your enemy by getting into the Arc of fire where he has the worst guns. On the other hand you try to get into a place where you can face the enemy with your main cannons. This would be especialy important in case of large, unmaneuvereable capital ships".

Hmmm... Remember GearHead? It did have facing system. Was it of any practical use? Most of the time it simply took one more keypress to shoot; and it never actually decided anything. Nothing more than a little annoyance.

Though capital ships change the picture radically... Will your game feature large-scale ships (think Star Destroyer vs. X-Wing)? They would benefit greatly from facing.


"I'd like the game not to turn into a child's game-like. I will try to preserve some serious mood there ;]"

Okay. Then we can have not all of them at the same time, but only one; sometimes.


"But one aspect that needs to be remebered is that there are guns against capital ships, and guns against fighters"

Will there be accuracy penalties for the first, and damage penalties for the second, or they will be simply unuseable?


"X-Wing FTW!"

You know my sources ;).

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

It's great to have you back :D

Hmmm... Remember GearHead? It did have facing system. Was it of any practical use? Most of the time it simply took one more keypress to shoot; and it never actually decided anything. Nothing more than a little annoyance.

Yes because facing wasn't vital, and wasn't tactical. Here we will probably have realtime, and turning for a big ship will be slooow.

Though capital ships change the picture radically... Will your game feature large-scale ships (think Star Destroyer vs. X-Wing)? They would benefit greatly from facing.

Yes, that's the whole point. Although I don't want to go immidately large scale, I have to keep that in mind. Anyway the turning speed will be one advantage that small fighterlike-ships will have over big trader ships.

"But one aspect that needs to be remebered is that there are guns against capital ships, and guns against fighters"

Will there be accuracy penalties for the first, and damage penalties for the second, or they will be simply unuseable?

Try hitting a X-Wing with a turbolaser :).

"X-Wing FTW!"

You know my sources ;).

Being a GREAT fan of StarWars space-sims I could not let that pass :D.

[Igor Savin]

"It's great to have you back :D"

It's great not to study Latin :-P


"Anyway the turning speed will be one advantage that small fighterlike-ships will have over big trader ships"

Will the control be mouse-driven like in WW? It won't be fun to constantly click, in order to keep your fighter's position in trader's weak spot, as he turns..


"Try hitting a X-Wing with a turbolaser :)."

Point taken.


"Being a GREAT fan of StarWars space-sims I could not let that pass :D."

Only "sims" ;)?

(what happened to that movie project of yours (ok, of your friends), btw?)

[Kornel Kisielewicz]

Will the control be mouse-driven like in WW? It won't be fun to constantly click, in order to keep your fighter's position in trader's weak spot, as he turns..

Yeah, probably mouse-driven. But the interface part needs to be thought about. Anyway, you will usualy not be the fighter.

"Being a GREAT fan of StarWars space-sims I could not let that pass :D."

Only "sims" ;)?

Okay, okay, Jedi Knight series also :-P

(what happened to that movie project of yours (ok, of your friends), btw?)

Don't ask ^_^. They didn't have much motivation.