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Author Topic: Shotgun Build discussion.  (Read 13622 times)

ultimate26

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Shotgun Build discussion.
« on: March 09, 2012, 12:55 »

Hi guys! ever since the beginning of doomRL, ive always struggled using the shotgun and i would like to know if it is possible to focus on the shotgun and be effective.

The odds of finding accuracy based weapons is much higher than a shotgun(pistos,miniguns,plasmarifle,rocket launcher VS shotgun, tactical and double shotty)

And at this current state, I feel that going 2 shotties with juggler is the most efficient way to use it because of the 0 reload time(swapping) which allows shooting without delay.

If the odds of finding a good shotgun item are low then doesnt that make the shotgun build more reliable on luck rather than skill?

I saw in one of the threads that using tech class with FIN > JUG > SOB > SOB into any option you like gives you more variation.

Can you guys post your experiences and advice regarding a shotgun build?

Cheers
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IronBeer

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2012, 13:50 »

When I go for a dedicated shotgun build (a la AoSg) I generally strive to have a Combat and Double Shotgun in my hands. The Combat will hopefully get turned into a Tactical Shotgun, and the Double is my psuedo-melee option. However, getting that Combat Shotty is far from guaranteed, so I'd suggest getting really comfortable with a vanilla Shotgun.

Some specific builds that I've had success with:

*Pulled off a Quartermaster Gold with a Shottyhead build. That master gives you Juggler and builds easily into Whizkid or Dodgemaster. Because of the hilariously low firetime for Shottyheads, you should definitely try to get an automatic shotgun of some sort. Specifically, you'll want to try and assemble a Tactical Shotgun, or pray for an Assault Shotgun, Plasma Shotgun or maybe even the Jackhammer.

*Fireangel was good until the current version broke its functionality. I'd avoid that trait for now.

*Army of the Dead is a time-tested classic, but I've been taking it somewhat less frequently as of late. Blocking Finesse and Hellrunner is pretty harsh, but it's hard to argue with Piercing damage on all your shotguns.

*For a masterless build, you'll obviously want Shottyman. Anything else is up to you, but I'd suggest getting any of the following: Badass, Dodgemaster, Whizkid, Intuition (Scouts only) or Juggler. As always, Ironman can keep you alive during the brutal lower levels, and a couple extra points of damage from Son of a Bitch will never go unappreciated - it REALLY helps get those "extended"-range kills.

Some basic tactical guidelines:

*Learn to use the vanilla Shotgun. It is absolutely a viable weapon, if a bit awkward, should you never find a Combat Shotgun (which is a very real and disappointing possibility). Regular Shotguns become quite usable with Shottyman and an understanding of cornershooting.

*Cornershooting. Learn it, use it, love it, abuse it. This is the real reason why shotgun builds work. It's a lot of hassle and it requires some patience, but cornershooting is the linchpin that holds shotgun builds together, especially early game. The enemy AI has been modified to be a bit more aggressive. If you hit a monster outside of LOS (say, shooting around a suspicious corner) keep shooting! But listen as well, or maybe wait a couple turns. Try to hear just how many monsters cry out in pain, and also how loud the cries are. With a little practice, you'll have a "player Intuition" that gives you almost as much information as the trait. Best place to practice is in Hell's Arena.

*Shottyman: Know when to reload, know when to move. The thing you need to remember about Shottyman is that your base reload time is probably still a lot less than your movement time. In my book, running-and-gunning against powerful enemies is a "shit just hit the fan" tactic. The best way to avoid damage is to avoid even being targeted by monsters in the first place. Cornershooting works a lot better with a low reload time, as it makes a "knockback lock" much easier to achieve on powerful foes. As a general rule, if you don't need to move during a firefight, you probably should reload while standing still.

*Double Shotgun: The range is really short (8 squares), but the maximum damage is very high up close. I typically use an unmodded Double Shotty as a sort of "shotgunner melee" attack. If you've taken at least 1 level in Whizkid, consider putting together a Focused Double Shotgun, which will grant your weapon the same spread as a basic Shotgun. For a Double Shotty, this dramatically increases the range and effective damage.

As a side note, the rare shotguns can cause ridiculous amounts of carnage when used under a dedicated shotgun build. I've been dying to make a Plasmatic Assault Shotgun under a Shottyhead build one of these days, but I've never had the fortune. The three basic shotguns can do all the damage you need, provided you use them smartly. Well... unless you get a scumbag Former or Baron who snatches up anti-shrapnel armor. Not much you can do there without switching to another weapon class altogether.
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Steve

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2012, 13:54 »

Well, there are many ways to make a shotty build but my go-to shotty is technition fin > jug > WK > WK > HR > HR > DG. That way I have some firepower and armor from Wizkid and also have dodgemaster in time for the tower of babbel. the juggler right off the bat is for obvious reasons.

Anyways, that's just what I do. All you have to do is find what works for you.

Good luck ^.^
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Ashannar

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2012, 15:25 »

I like shottyhead a lot. Sometimes you can have a hell baron or arachnotron in melee range out in the open, and with a tactical shotgun you can push them all the way out of your vision radius before they can shoot.

In my experience with shottyhead, a combat shotgun should be enough to get to the mastermind. But I hope you have a lot of shells if you want to use it then.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 15:30 by Ashannar »
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Motorheadbanger

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2012, 01:39 »

As for me, I always go for the Army of the Dead, mostly because I have a paranoia of shell lackage on later levels. And the elephant gun does the job with this trait. Although, it's important to note, I think, that U City of Skulls can potentially be dangerous, if you don't have the D-shotty, because lost souls are pretty good with swarming the player, way too fast than you wish. So I suggest going for MAD, and have a C-Shotty (to make it tactical), bulk-modded D-Shotty (you know, just because it's 'bulk'), and a regular shotgun to make it the elephant gun. Other question is the exotics/Jackhammer, I don't usually see them. Only once I found the plasma shotgun while playing U AoSh, and it was meh.
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ultimate26

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2012, 12:16 »

How come tactical shotgun is better than assault shotgun according to the wiki?

can anybody give me a tier list of shotguns? why is elephant shotgun considered good when you can go tactical or focused double shotty instead?

To me it feels as if the P mods are really rare, i see tons of As and Ts somtimes Bs.

Plasma shotgun any good? with damage reduction how much different is it from a Tactical shotgun? they are both mentioned as 15 average damage.
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AlterAsc

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2012, 13:12 »

It's hard to make tier list.After all what's best for you depends on your build.
Elephant Gun is the most ammo efficient not requiring WK assemble.Without Shottyman nearly useless due to 2.5s reload time.Mostly used when playing MAD since it blocks Fin.
Tactical and assault are the same except difference in number of damage dices.Focused blast, good for cornershooting, don't require traits to be useful.
DS - wide blast, 2s reload time, useless if enemy is not close.FDS - normal blast, requires WK, pretty good.
Plasma shotgun - unique blast and plasma damage( so halved armor reduction instead of doubled).But eats cells.
Jackhammer - eats shells extremely fast.Useful sometimes.

P-mods seems rare to me too, but according to wiki all normal mods have the same weight,meaning equal chances.
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HenWen

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2012, 13:19 »

Ultimate I think a tier list is somewhat difficult because the different shotguns have very different roles.  Some shotguns have more spread than others, others have more DPS, and others are more ammo-efficient.  Here is a basic breakdown though:

TIER 0:  Regular shotgun
TIER 1:  Combat shotgun; Double shotgun; Elephant Gun
TIER 2:  Tactical shotgun; Focused double shotgun;
TIER 2.5:  Assault shotgun; Plasma shotgun (?)
TIER 3:  Super Shotgun, Pancor Jackhammer.

I did not list the nanoshrapnel assembly because I haven't tested it. A little explanation:

Tier 0 - the regular shotgun is pretty average, no outstanding abilities or penalties.
Tier 1 -  These three shotguns are better at different roles.  The Double Shotgun is invaluable for fighting lost souls and pain elementals, the wider spread is invaluable.  This is even usable for non shotgun-based builds now due to the shell box.  However, it sucks at range and is less ammo-efficient than a regular shotgun.  The combat shotgun is one of the best weapons in the game for any build, because it is extremely efficient at corner shooting and radar shooting, and uses common ammunition.  It is more effective at range than the other shotguns of this tier.  The elephant gun does less damage per time fired than the double, but does more damage per shell than any shotgun until the super shotgun, meaning it has a niche role to fill.

Tier2:  The two assemblies offer minor but significant improvements.  Your tactical shotty will not need pumping, making it even better for corner shooting, while the focused double shotty is more ammo efficient.  But because the assemblies limit the number of mods that can be applied they are listed at this tier.

Tier2.5:  The assault shotgun is almost identical to the tactical shotgun.  It has 1 more ammo in its magazine and does 1d3 less damage per shot.  The only advantage is that it can be modded.  A P3 assault shotgun is a beautiful, beautiful thing.  Thus it is only better for builds with levels in whizkid.
I listed the plasma shotgun here due to a lack of experience with it.  I believe it uses 5 plasma rounds per shot, but is armor piercing, faster to reload, and has a larger effective magazine than either the tactical or assault shotties.  Probably good for shotgun builds to have an alternative ammo to use, but for builds not so constrained the plasma rifle is probably better.

Tier3:  These are the uber weapons.  The Super shotgun is a significant upgrade over the double and  focused double shotguns.  You can even fire one shell at a time for the most damaging weapon per shell fired.  The Pancor fires two shells at once like a double, but can carry a large magazine and its damage is better at range like a tactical - best of both worlds. 

Ultimate the performance of the plasma depends entirely on how much armor your target has.  Most regular creatures have no more than 2 base armor, which is doubled vs regular shotgun shrapnel and halved vs plasma, leading to three more damage.  This isn't too important at point blank range, but lets say your target is 7 tiles away from you:
7d3 - 14 damage average.  7 tiles distance = 35% damage reduction, so roughly 10 damage at 7 tiles.  After armor, this will be 6 damage for the regular combat shotgun and 9 damage for the plasma.

If you are radar shooting distant mobs at say 12 tiles, that is a 60% damage reduction.  The regular combat will deal 7 damage, reduced by armor to 3, while the plasma will deal 6.  As you can see, the greater the range, the more important the damage type is.
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spacedust

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2012, 20:47 »

I love shotguns!

If you want a quick and dirty build to learn shotgunning basics, I suggest this:

Scout: Int->Int->Rel->Rel, then possibly going to Shottyhead from there.

Learn enemy movement patterns by watching them using Int. Also, get a feel for how to shoot them such that they cannot shoot you back.

If you are planning to play a shotgun-only build, Reloader is very very important in the beginning. There's nothing worse than seeing a pack of demons converge on you and not being able to knock them back fast enough because your shotty takes too long to reload.

A vanilla shotgun can take you very far provided you play tactically. That means firing shots into blank spaces and listening for enemy cries, and retreating to corners. I cannot emphasize the second point enough. Retreat to corners and fire around them!

If ammo is plentiful and you have no need to conserve, let it rip once you hear an enemy pain cry. Conversely, if you're low on ammo, wait for them to come closer so that they feel the full effect of shells.

Everything better than a vanilla shotgun is heaven!
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ih8regin

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2012, 22:15 »

played today an AoSh run, got blessed with a Jackhammer - ruined it all when ran out of ammo at level 1 Hell, rage quit. Whacking with Jackhammer against lost souls is counter-productive :) I didn't have shottyman at that point, as I went into Int2, Juggler and DM first.

SO far I expect the best dedicated shotgun build with the scout is Int-Int-Rel-Rel-SM-HR-HR-DM-Fin-either into MSH or WK, depending of mods abundance. Tactical shotgun is a must I guess.
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IronBeer

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2012, 00:10 »

SO far I expect the best dedicated shotgun build with the scout is Int-Int-Rel-Rel-SM-HR-HR-DM-Fin-either into MSH or WK, depending of mods abundance. Tactical shotgun is a must I guess.
Try taking Rel and SM first, or alternate Rel-Int. You *need* to cut the reloading time early game, and I like to try and shoot for achieving Shottyman while in Hell's Arena.

Also, hoard shells like a maniac if you're doing AoSg or a shotgun-primary build. Yes, you may just need those 8 stacks of shells. Trade shell stacks for shell boxes when possible, but seriously shoot to have at least 300 total shells between inventory stacks or boxes. Shells are often hard to find in Hell, stockpile them while you can in Phobos and Deimos. Halls of Carnage is also a great place to stock back up even if you don't want/ can't use the BFG.
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Ashannar

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2012, 00:19 »

SO far I expect the best dedicated shotgun build with the scout is Int-Int-Rel-Rel-SM-HR-HR-DM-Fin-either into MSH or WK, depending of mods abundance. Tactical shotgun is a must I guess.

Granted, Int->Int first thing certainly helps survivability, but I usually prefer Rel->Rel. Double-reloader turns the regular shotgun into a tool that allows you to corner shoot any enemy in the game indefinitely. Rel->Rel->SM also makes Hell's Arena easier than Int 2, in my opinion.

Ah, and about shells—if you have the chance to archvile-farm sergeants safely, do it.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 00:24 by Ashannar »
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ih8regin

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2012, 00:42 »

sure enough hoard shells. I had 8 stacks in that game with a Jackhammer, and burned through all of them. Granted, I did stupid things - first, I didn't go to Halls of Carnage, second, I did both City of Skulls and Arachnid Lair, and to add injury to injury, no sergeants in Deimos-7 to feed me with shells, and also none of them in Hell-1. He-he. (I was left with 2 shell boxes, but I was really frustrated by that point so I quit.)

Archvile-farm sergeants? Well, this sounds like a plan, though I still like them stay dead more than play "down-up". It can help on higher difficulties, of course, thanks.

About Int-Int start vs Rel-Rel - I want to practice untouchability, so that I am forcing a gameplay compying with taking no damage directive. Last game went stupidly wrong at Phobos Anomaly - was stupid enough to allow souls to surround me, pwned 3 large medpacks and an armor, with the oh so needed help received from cacodemons, blowing part of those skulls into oblivion, then frantically running back to hide and heal. Also was wielding a combat shotty instead of double shotty, it works a whole lot better against multiple targets at close range. (Well, I am still a novice, despite winning one HMP and a bunch of challenges.) So far being at Deimos-5 (ran out of time this morning), with tactical shotty in primary and shotgun/P1 plus double/T1 for backups. And 12 stacks of shells, and two shell boxes :) Int-Int-HR-HR-DM-Rel-Rel-SM-Fin, don't remember did I already get that Fin or not.
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spacedust

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2012, 02:33 »

Another way to practice survivability is to play Technician Rel-Rel, though you can't shoot for Fireangel in 0.9.9.6 due to the bug. Getting a tracking map almost every other level really helps you to get a feel for how the AI works, and for how well you can avoid getting hit. Pay attention to your reload times and your movement times, and get a feel for how fast you can run away from the enemy and how many times you can safely corner shoot before the enemy is on you.

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Klear

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Re: Shotgun Build discussion.
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2012, 02:38 »

Also, hoard shells like a maniac if you're doing AoSg or a shotgun-primary build. Yes, you may just need those 8 stacks of shells. Trade shell stacks for shell boxes when possible, but seriously shoot to have at least 300 total shells between inventory stacks or boxes. Shells are often hard to find in Hell, stockpile them while you can in Phobos and Deimos. Halls of Carnage is also a great place to stock back up even if you don't want/ can't use the BFG.

No kidding. When playing AoSh on UV, I always ended up with no ammo in Hell's Armory, even though I even unloaded every single shotgun that was left after the sergeants. I guess I have to learn to conserve ammo better before attempting it again.
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