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[spacedust]

I have played shotgun based builds ever since I first found DoomRL and recently, have been tempted to learn the art of rapid firing. But I am horrible at it and keep dying. How does it work?

Eg, let's say I open the door to a wide open space, and fire the shotgun to scout for bad guys. I hear some bad guys. What do I do? I can't possibly wait around for them to advance and engage them one on one and I can't shoot them in the darkness because I don't know their location. I've tried Int based builds and it seems to alleviate the problem somewhat, but how do people do Ammochain builds and all that stuff?

Edit: Also, what guns are recommended early/mid/late game? If I am planning on Whizkid, what should I aim to build around or save mods for? I like the guaranteed Chaingun from HA, and I can put together an assault chaingun using CC and the Armory mods, but what else do I do? I understand that plasma builds are great in the endgame when bullets bounce off enemies, but what do you aim for when building?

Also, ammo balance. I can't figure out how much of each to carry. My last few runs packed 1 RL/1 rockets, 1 shotgun/2 shells, and about 5 bullets, 5 cells. It does seem like an awful lot of stuff...

[AlterAsc]

About Ammochain first.I start it with Rel2 and until i get MAc i use shotguns.
After i get i usually just walk around, if i see someone i shoot him with my A-modded plasma rifle.If he's dangerous than i go behind a corner and wait until i see enemy, then i shoot him, if he's not dead i shoot him again, if he's still alive i fire third volley and kill it.If it's not dead yet than that's "B" in some exotic plasma armor and it's time to switch to smth else.
If you're lucky and find sniper mod during your MAc game then you become awesome to the point of almost always killing your enemy with one volley(with maxed SoB).
Another thing - beware of knockback.If there's a chance that shot damage is at least 12, that means there's a chance to knockback your enemy so all shots after miss.For example if you have SoB5 then even P-modded plasma is most of the time inferior to unmodded, not to say about P2 or P3.That also means that making burst cannon can be a waste of mods.
If you play rapid-fire build, don't forget to visit Spider Lair.It's pretty easy with your plasma rifle and rewards are useful - cells from Arachnotrons is more than you spent killing them and nuclear plasma saves a lot of cells for non-Mac rapid-fire builds.
If you play Tech you have easy access to WK so it's worth assembling assault rifle - it's not as good as it was but still pretty much okay.Also hyperblaster is good too.
Don't forget to take at least one level in EE(maybe after master trait, mb before) - without it you have to apply agility mods or your weapon'll be horribly ammo-inefficient and you don't have MAc to help with ammo problem.Disregard this should you find sniper mod.

[Ashannar]

Eg, let's say I open the door to a wide open space, and fire the shotgun to scout for bad guys. I hear some bad guys. What do I do? I can't possibly wait around for them to advance and engage them one on one

Rapid fire builds are actually best-suited to do just that. You're guaranteed to get one salvo off before retaliation; formers and imps are guaranteed kills with a vanilla chaingun once you have EE and SoB (barring armors, of course). (Once you tag an enemy it will head straight for you without delay, so it's not like it's a long wait.)

Doorways are pretty inferior to proper cover (unless of course your enemy is along the wall). With int, you should be able to lure the enemy to an advantageous spot. So basically: in close quarters, game intuition. Long-range, game cateye. Really, you shouldn't ever get hit unless you get surrounded.

I've tried Int based builds and it seems to alleviate the problem somewhat, but how do people do Ammochain builds and all that stuff?

Int/cateye is superior in every way to ammochain, in my opinion. Not only is ammochain basically pointless unless you're doing AoLT, but it blocks all the best traits.

[raekuul]

I would recommend Int/Cateye for a pistol build more than for a Rapidfire build, though that's primarily due to personal preference for pistols.

The style of play is vastly different between Shotguns and Non-Shotguns in that Shotguns can easily handle crowds of monsters whereas Non-Shotguns are designed for taking down individuals. When I do non-challenge runs, I go for Pistol builds and keep a Shotgun (but just a Shotgun) for until I get the Rocket Launcher. It helps that you can easily carry a thousand bullets but only a few hundred shells.

[Pricklyman]

Int/cateye is superior in every way to ammochain, in my opinion. Not only is ammochain basically pointless unless you're doing AoLT, but it blocks all the best traits.

I am totally waiting for the blast...(Yes I know it's your opinion, but I must refute it nonetheless!)

1) MAc pretty much makes Plasma builds possible (since even the Nuke Plasma Rifle is a little dodgy - since you often run out of bullets before finishing an encounter.)

2) MAc allows you to actually carry more...stuff, also allows you to carry spare weapons, mods and even a shotgun with ammo, (If you so choose) since you don't really need more than two stacks of 10mm/cells.

3) I agree it takes that MAc has the biggest effect in AoLT.

4) I fail to see how TaN, SoG and EE are the best traits in the game. I agree that EE is one of the best, but TaN and SoG...not so much. SoG simply because in a situation where you would build towards Ammochain, whyever you would use a pistol is beyond me. You still have access to Fin/WK/Jug which allow speed, which complements the spam provided by Ammochain.

5) I agree that Int/MCe is pretty good, but besides foresight, it gives little else. (On a more personal note, MCe confuses the hell out of me RE: knowing when enemies can fire back.) Also, with MAc you can afford a few "probing bursts" into the distance with a chaingun to see what's what.


But anyway, back to OP...

Rapidfire builds are more suited towards single encounters as opposed to crowd control, as raekull said. Before getting MAc I personally just carry a shotgun with me, for crowd control. (Whether it is a vanilla shotty, a combat shotty or otherwise is down to RNG) Once you get MAc you can just corner shoot your heart out with a chaingun or something, since bullets REALLY aren't an issue anymore! :D (Which helps with "vision")

[Uitë]

4) I fail to see how TaN, SoG and EE are the best traits in the game. I agree that EE is one of the best, but TaN and SoG...not so much. SoG simply because in a situation where you would build towards Ammochain, whyever you would use a pistol is beyond me. You still have access to Fin/WK/Jug which allow speed, which complements the spam provided by Ammochain.

Well, SoG's fire speed bonus gets pretty ridiculous at the higher levels, regularly emptying bullets at your target faster than rapid-fire weapons, and for higher damage per bullet too, furthermore allowing you to re-aim between every shot. Combinining it with a GCB, you get the best of both worlds, and absolutely destroy everything. Granted, your ammo needs when using pistols are higher than with Ammochain, but not by that much.

[Deathwind]

Also, ammo balance. I can't figure out how much of each to carry. My last few runs packed 1 RL/1 rockets, 1 shotgun/2 shells, and about 5 bullets, 5 cells. It does seem like an awful lot of stuff...

Some of the hardest parts of doomrl revolve around this exact issue, it really depends on your build/play style. I prefer ammochain for my rapid-fire builds, as such I tend to skip the chaingun entirely by just sticking to the shotguns till I can upgrade to plasma.

As such before MAc I only carry:
2 stacks of 10mm (or 1 chain) with the chaingun in my prep slot
3-4 stacks of shells with the shotgun/combat shotgun as main weapon
2 stacks of rockets and the launcher (missile launcher normally)
All the cells I can spare space for (2-4 stacks, BFGs count)

After MAc it shifts to one stack of shells with an extra 2 stacks of 10mm till I get a plasma rifle, then I drop the shotgun and lose the extra 10mm (always keep 2 stacks or 1 chain encase of plasma shortage till the nuclear rifle), and double the cells with the extra space going to large med kits/armor.

In MAc never use the assault rifle assembly, use the guaranteed A mods to:
1 on a set of steel boots (upgrade to tac boots with a wild A mod)
1 on the plasma rifle
1 on the chaingun (no plasma when MAc) or save it for the nuclear rifle.

[HenWen]

Even with rapid fire builds I don't usually use rapid fire weapons until later in the game.  They are very trait-intensive.  Also it is a good idea to switch weapons depending on what enemies are in the area - keep your ears open.  If you are going around a corner or opening a door to a large room it is usually a good idea to have a shotgun equipped. 

I can't really say that there is a typical rapid-fire build either.  Cateye gives you usually two rounds to shoot at enemies before they can see you in wide open spaces.  Entrenchment, combined with properly modded armor and the TaN levels that the trait requires, increases your survivability.  And yes, with MAc it is entirely possible to blindly shoot once you know roughly where the enemies are.

Pistol builds generally stick with pistols as their primary weapon throughout the game, same with shotgun builds.  But this is not the case with rapid fire builds.  EE levels are extremely important, but since this is forbidden by MAc it is not uncommon for me to use the combat shotgun over the chaingun or even plasma if I do not have sufficient agility mods for my weapon.  So just be prepared to use them differently.  It is true that GCB makes pistol builds ludicrously strong, but without that I think rapid fire builds have the easiest time killing everything in the lower levels of the game.  You are giving up some early game power for late game power.

[Deathwind]

A mods just won't spawn, that is why I need horde the few that you can be sure to get. This game is one of the hardest inventory puzzles ever made, you win or lose a rapid-fire game mostly to inventory management.

[Ashannar]

2) MAc allows you to actually carry more...stuff, also allows you to carry spare weapons, mods and even a shotgun with ammo, (If you so choose) since you don't really need more than two stacks of 10mm/cells.

In the last cateye rapid fire build I did, I carried a combat shotgun, BFG, missile launcher, chaingun, and plasma rifle, with enough shells to shoot to my heart's content. I had pretty sizable stacks of 9mm and plasma. With a bit of management, I never came close to running out of either ammo type. 9mm on weaker enemies, rockets + plasma on harder. I agree, though- if you want to spam plasma, MAC is the way to go.

4) I fail to see how TaN, SoG and EE are the best traits in the game. I agree that EE is one of the best, but TaN and SoG...not so much. SoG simply because in a situation where you would build towards Ammochain, whyever you would use a pistol is beyond me. You still have access to Fin/WK/Jug which allow speed, which complements the spam provided by Ammochain.

For some reason I was under the impression that HR was blocked by ammochain, but I was wrong. That's a bit better.

[Pricklyman]

Well, SoG's fire speed bonus gets pretty ridiculous at the higher levels, regularly emptying bullets at your target faster than rapid-fire weapons, and for higher damage per bullet too, furthermore allowing you to re-aim between every shot. Combinining it with a GCB, you get the best of both worlds, and absolutely destroy everything. Granted, your ammo needs when using pistols are higher than with Ammochain, but not by that much.

I wouldn't disagree, but do remind me again what the chances are of actually FINDING a GCB?!  :P 

However considering the pistol build has got to be my favourite build - don't think I'm poo-pooing on SoG by any chance...hehe.

(On a side note however - I really hate the damn GCB - although I am a MBD nut...nyuknyuk.)

[AlterAsc]

Yeah, SoG's fire speed bonus is ridiculous at lvl5.Which is character lvl13.Until then plasma is better.
Also shooting 5 times with a 0.1s pistol is more annoying then once from plasma rifle.
Personally i don't like GCB.I would prefer Trigun over it, or better gimme combat pistol 3d6 (26/26) (B2P3).Now that's a real thing.

9mm on weaker enemies, rockets + plasma on harder. I agree, though- if you want to spam plasma, MAC is the way to go.

And with MAc you can kill everything with plasma.No need to waste slots for chaingun and 10mm,shotgun and shells,much less plasma is needed,launcher+10 rockets is enough.And you don't need to think about all management at all- you just kill and that's it.If it's one imp or it's arch-vile - mancubi pack, you don't need to think "ok i kill those mancubi like 10th time in a row, where in hell shall i get 10mm and plasma that i just used up?".

[HenWen]

Actually I have to disagree with all the people that say you dump shotguns completely after you get MAc.  Shotguns still have their uses.

1.  City of skulls.  Basically any build can do this without traits if they have a double shotgun and box of shells. 
2.  Radar shooting.  Do you really want to shoot at every possible square where an enemy is using manual targetting?  A combat shotty is great for this.  You can damage the enemies to lure them into your line of sight so you get the first shot.
3.  Pain elementals can easily get out of control for pure rapid-fire builds. A little shotty action helps sweep those annoying souls away. 
4.  Ammo efficiency - although this practically does not matter, it helps to have something to kill weak mobs such as formers, demons, etc.  You probably won't run completely out of ammo for your plasma, but you may use enough ammo that you force yourself to ration BFG usage.  And I like to use the BFG liberally. 
5.  Crowd control - viles like to hide behind other creatures.  You can the monster blocking your shot at the vile pretty quickly with plasma, but then the vile can resurrect the creature pretty quickly, and on and on.  With a shotty, you can deal damage to the vile with each shot, in spite of the bodies in front of it.

[Deathwind]

Shotguns do have their uses but what would you leave behind for them?

1.  The problem here is they take far too long to reload if you don't have the box, this means you need to save full boxes for this.  Are you really going to spend 2-3 inventory spaces (the gun and 1 or 2 boxs) on a level that can easily be cleared with well planned shots and maybe a phase?

2.  Radar shooting is nice but somethings gotta go, what would you drop instead?

3.  Aim straight for the elemental through the souls and keep firing, it'll die in a couple volleys

4.  Ammo efficiency? shells are rare in hell, unless you bring alot of them you will run out quick. "And I like to use the BFG liberally" that's a big part of your ammo problem, you are spending 40 plasma volleys worth of ammo on ONE shot that you will still need to mop up after anyway.

5.  take cover out of the room and kill the monsters as they come to you (blind shooting for attention if need be), the viles will advance or the monsters will stop coming and you can go after the vile. The extra 150 cells you have from ditching the shotgun and 2 stacks of shells can buy you alot of patience. Also see #3 replacing elemental with vile.

[Ashannar]

Something's gotta go? Nah, not really. I took a shotgun along with my plasma rifle on AoLT and I wouldn't have used those slots for anything else.

Shells aren't as rare as a lot of people like to say they are. Not even in hell.