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Author Topic: Overpowered energy-shielded vest?  (Read 5832 times)

Skibbler

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Overpowered energy-shielded vest?
« on: April 18, 2012, 10:47 »

I sure think so. Its base protection is 1, with 50% fire/acid/plasma resistances. If you assemble nanofiber skin energy-shielded vest, you're up to 25% melee/bullet/shrapnel, 75% fire/plasma/acid, and the armor becomes indestructible and self-regenerating. Add on a power mod pack and you have 3 protection, 25% melee/bullet/shrapnel, 75% fire/plasma/acid. At this point, all non-boss enemies that deal fire, acid, or plasma damage are either guaranteed to deal 1 damage or have a small chance to do more than one damage. Archviles always deal 2 damage, Mancubi and Revenants have a tiny chance to deal 2-3 damage, Nightmare imps have a 1/36 chance to deal 2 damage, Nightmare cacodemons can deal up to 3 damage, Nightmare archviles deal 3 damage, the shambler deals up to 4, etc.

And it gets better. With three levels in tough as nails, the only ways you can get hit by more than one damage are:

Attack (Max Damage)
Seargent shotgun at distance of 1 (4)
Seargent shotgun at distance of 2 (2)
Baron of hell's melee attack (2)
Mancubus' melee attack (2)
Nightmare demon' melee attack (4)
Nightmare cacodemon's melee attack (2)
Nightmare archvile's melee attack (2)
Shambler's ranged attack (2)
Shambler's melee attack (2)
Bruiser brother's melee attack (2)
Lava elemental's melee attack (2)
Cyberdemon's melee attack (8)
Cyberdemon's ranged attack (3)
Angel of death's melee attack (8)
John Carmack's melee attack (8)
John Carmack's ranged attack (3)
enemies that fire multiple times per turn

As you can see from the list above, the chances of an attack dealing > 1 damage are small. Most of the possibilities for taking > 1 damage involve melee attacks from enemies which prefer to attack you with ranged attacks (and deal less damage with ranged attacks). Most of the max damages listed in that table will never be inflicted upon you; for instance, the chance that JC's/the Cyberdemon's rocket launcher will deal 2 damage to you is less than 1 in 50; the chance of 3 damage is 1 in 1666. Probably, the only attacks that deal > 1 damage that will ever actually be inflicted upon you are the Angel of death's or the nightmare demon's melee attack (but the angel of death does not spawn randomly, even in Ao100, and chances are you'll have a hatred skull ready when you face the angel of death in the unholy cathedral).

Furthermore, if you get entrenchment (which does not block tough as nails), then you are truly invincible.

Now, I do acknowledge that enemies that fire multiple times per turn can deal more than one damage per turn. Still, what they deal is almost negligible when the hard hitters like nightmare archviles and revenants are guaranteed to deal 1 damage to you per attack.

To attain near-invincibility, all you need is:
2-3 power mods and a nano mod
an energy-shielded vest
1-2 levels of whizkid (you could get by with only one, but an extra level in whizkid allows you to add another power mod and get extra protection = two levels of tough as nails)
(optional) three levels in tough as nails
(optional) entrenchment

Are the mods and the vest guaranteed? Of course not. But in my experience the vest is not rare, and you have a decent chance of getting a nano mod especially if you visit the armory. If you're playing Ao100, the odds are even better. And when you do get the right ingredients, the combination is just overwhelmingly powerful. Every other armor, unique or assembled, is far less powerful, even those that are far more difficult to obtain. Even cybernano cybernetic armor (P1) is not as powerful, especially against plasma attacks.

All of my numerical information was obtained from the wiki. My calculations were done under the assumption that .5 rounds to even.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 10:52 by Skibbler »
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skarczew

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Re: Overpowered energy-shielded vest?
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2012, 11:28 »

I wonder, why you do not complain about Cerberus? Or Onyx Armor Pack?

Quote
If you assemble nanofiber skin energy-shielded vest (...) the armor becomes indestructible(...).
You are wrong, I think.

Not everyone is playing Ao100. Not everyone is playing Technician, therefore you need something more than Wk alone to create that stuff. And there are so many other uses for Nano pack, which is not guaranteed in any way so far.
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AlterAsc

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Re: Overpowered energy-shielded vest?
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2012, 11:52 »

Quote
If you assemble nanofiber
Only if you find nano pack.
Also there is P-modded cerberus onyx armor.70% fire and acid, 50% plasma.And it only requires onyx armor, not super rare nano pack and not-so common vest.
But about every once in a lifetime you can have this cool armor
And there're combinations like DS + MMB + nanofiber skin cybernetic armor.95% all resistances, at least 7 armor.Don't know what BA does, maybe even stronger with it.
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IronBeer

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Re: Overpowered energy-shielded vest?
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2012, 12:28 »

And there're combinations like DS + MMB + nanofiber skin cybernetic armor.95% all resistances, at least 7 armor.Don't know what BA does, maybe even stronger with it.
Sorry to be a wet blanket, but that won't work (not that it really matters, though). DS can't be put into the off-hand, and MMB won't give its resistance bonuses without a blade in the off-hand.

A couple weeks ago, 2dev posted a recorded game with DS + BA wielded. The recording doesn't show how to wield the DS, but it does show the combo in action. I'll just say that the BA is really, really good.
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Uranium

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Re: Overpowered energy-shielded vest?
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2012, 12:55 »

...MMB won't give its resistance bonuses without a blade in the off-hand.
You could just put a bog-standard combat knife in the off-hand, bam, MMB resistances.
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AlterAsc

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Re: Overpowered energy-shielded vest?
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2012, 13:00 »

Yes, DS was used just as a constant source of +60% all res.And in off-hand some random combat knife.So it works. :)
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Skibbler

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Re: Overpowered energy-shielded vest?
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2012, 13:31 »

I wonder, why you do not complain about Cerberus? Or Onyx Armor Pack?
You are wrong, I think.

Not everyone is playing Ao100. Not everyone is playing Technician, therefore you need something more than Wk alone to create that stuff. And there are so many other uses for Nano pack, which is not guaranteed in any way so far.

I'm not complaining about anything. I'm pointing out something that seems unbalanced. And I don't see any problem with cerberus because it is far worse. Cerberus gives 70% acid/fire, 50% plasma, 0 protection. Plus you need to put on an onyx/nano pack to make indestructible/regenerate durability. So in the end you get 70% acid/fire, 50% plasma, indestructible or regenerative, 0 protection. First of all, this gives you no protection against bullet/shrapnel/melee enemies. It also makes you take significantly more damage from acid/fire/plasma enemies, especially plasma enemies, compared to the armor I described.

You're right that not everyone plays technician, but if you don't get whizkid, then you won't have really good armor no matter what. You don't need to be a technician to make the armor I described work; you just need 1 or 2 levels of whizkid.

Only if you find nano pack.
Also there is P-modded cerberus onyx armor.70% fire and acid, 50% plasma.And it only requires onyx armor, not super rare nano pack and not-so common vest.
But about every once in a lifetime you can have this cool armor
And there're combinations like DS + MMB + nanofiber skin cybernetic armor.95% all resistances, at least 7 armor.Don't know what BA does, maybe even stronger with it.

I don't think onyx armor is more common than the energy-shielded vest. I've encountered the vest more often. Plus, the p-modded cerberus onyx armor has significantly worse protection, though I do admit it doesn't need the nano pack.

And so what if there's a combination like DS + MMB + nanofiber skin cybernetic armor. First of all, the DS and cybernetic armor are really rare uniques, while the vest is not. The chances of getting both uniques is slim slim slim. Second, DS + MMB + nanofiber skin cybernetic armor requires you to get MMB, which is a very specific mastery, while any character who gets a level in whizkid can get ridiculous protection with the energy shielded vest + nanofiber skin armor + the optional things I listed. Third, if DS + MMB + nanofiber skin cybernetic armor is so ridiculously powerful, then perhaps it should also be nerfed.

My point is that all you need is a relatively common (purple) special armor (it's found in depths 5+), a nano pack, and whizkid, and then there are almost no enemies who can deal more than 1 damage to you, bosses included. Cerberus onyx armor (P) is far less powerful (plus it slows you down a lot), and DS + MMB + nanofiber skin cybernetic armor requires you to find two uniques, have a specific master trait, be a technician, and find a nano pack.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 13:32 by Skibbler »
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ZicherCZ

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Re: Overpowered energy-shielded vest?
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2012, 13:52 »

Ummm ... Maybe it is just me, but out of ~40 games of 0.996 I yet have to find a single energy-shielded vest. And I only found a single nano-pack ever since assemblies were introduced. So it certainly is not that common.
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AlterAsc

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Re: Overpowered energy-shielded vest?
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2012, 14:21 »

Quote
Third, if DS + MMB + nanofiber skin cybernetic armor is so ridiculously powerful, then perhaps it should also be nerfed.
No it shouldn't.Because it never happens in reality.
Quote
My point is that all you need is a relatively common
Relatively.I had games with zero exotic drop(except guaranteed).
And combination of two is superrare.
And no, cerberus onyx is not far less powerful.It lacks 1 armor, 5% fire(the main resist), 25% plasma, 5% acid.Noone cares about bullet and shrapnel and 25% melee by itself is useless.
I found energy-shielded vest once, and got nano pack twice from armory.So i'm not sure if i ever get both.
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Cotonou

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Re: Overpowered energy-shielded vest?
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2012, 14:28 »

The fun thing about this thread is that the armor described is still in no way as beneficial as anti-grav boots.

This might be an acceptable use of your second nano pack.  *Maybe*
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Ashannar

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Re: Overpowered energy-shielded vest?
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2012, 14:41 »

Nano mods are rare, so to do something powerful with them seems acceptable to me.
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AlterAsc

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Re: Overpowered energy-shielded vest?
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2012, 14:42 »

Would sell antigrav boots with boots slot included for such armor anytime.Even on AoB.
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shark20061

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Re: Overpowered energy-shielded vest?
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2012, 19:51 »

Energy vest may be overpowered with some modding and such, but it has a weight of 3 (about the same as some uniques).  On the earliest floor it can spawn on (5), it has a 0.03% chance of spawning, and it goes down from there.  That's a 1 in 2,548 chance to be picked to appear.  Given 10 chances on that floor, it has a 0.39% chance of spawning.   Also, that just the chance of the vest.  Add in the chance of the nano pack or whatever you else you want to mod it with, and the overall chance drops from there.  The scenario described is very unlikely.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 19:58 by shark20061 »
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MaiZure

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Re: Overpowered energy-shielded vest?
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2012, 22:57 »

Energy vest may be overpowered with some modding and such, but it has a weight of 3 (about the same as some uniques).  On the earliest floor it can spawn on (5), it has a 0.03% chance of spawning, and it goes down from there.  That's a 1 in 2,548 chance to be picked to appear.  Given 10 chances on that floor, it has a 0.39% chance of spawning.   Also, that just the chance of the vest.  Add in the chance of the nano pack or whatever you else you want to mod it with, and the overall chance drops from there.  The scenario described is very unlikely.

These numbers are true and also misleading in terms of game balance. On an individual level, every 'OP' item could be justifible by considering probability, yet given enough items, you have a very high probability of finding a low probability item in one game.

I don't actually see us at that point and I think our weighting system defers the issue, but items like this may need to be nerfed on an aggregate basis rather than individual weighting.

...or just give these items to enemies :P
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ZicherCZ

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Re: Overpowered energy-shielded vest?
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2012, 01:38 »

...or just give these items to enemies :P
Some buggers already can use the vest. Quite nasty on a hell baron when all you have is your plasma rifle ...
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