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Author Topic: Branching Out to Other Roguelikes  (Read 9060 times)

Gamer-man

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Branching Out to Other Roguelikes
« on: February 05, 2013, 23:18 »

I was wondering what other DoomRL (and aliensRL, diabloRL, and Beserk!) fans would suggest for branching out to other games in the genre.  Note that i'm more considering it as a "must try" list, thus historically important roguelikes (like rogue) might be on the list.  Also, a brief description on what sets it apart would be helpful for sorting purposes.
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Deathwind

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Re: Branching Out to Other Roguelikes
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2013, 01:41 »

ADOM, one of the greatest of roguelikes, recently went back into development
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IronBeer

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Re: Branching Out to Other Roguelikes
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2013, 11:04 »

Dwarf Fortress. Need I say more?

Ok- in case I do, here's why I'd suggest it. Incredibly in-depth systems for combat, environmental interaction, and fortress construction. I mean, where else could you fight a sasquatch, chop one of its arms off, pick up said arm, then beat the still-living creature to death with its own arm? Also, magma cannons for fortress defense; that is in fact a thing. Also, Dwarf Fortress has some of the best-looking ASCII I've yet seen in a roguelike, and there are a lot of graphics packs available.
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Re: Branching Out to Other Roguelikes
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2013, 11:38 »

Should we be assuming that, as a fan, you want to play games that apply the similar feel of Chaosforge roguelikes, or are you really looking for just about anything in the genre? I say this only because I believe it makes a big difference when it comes to what sort of roguelike you'll be interested in.

Chaosforge roguelikes are somewhat unique in that they're pretty fast-paced when it comes to doing things, and there's almost never any time where you make a stash, retrace your steps, grind out some experience or items, et cetera. In essence, this is what tends to define the subset of "coffeebreak" roguelikes, although you'll hear plenty of differing opinions there so let's not get into that. By contrast, many of the major roguelikes are going to have you spend extra time doing things unrelated to combat (unless you're really good at them, but in such games this is technically handicapping yourself with an ironman challenge): some of them are better at handling this than others, but in general if you don't mind it then it's rarely a significant hassle.

With this is mind, if you're looking for stuff similar to what we have here at Chaosforge, I'd suggest the following:
  • Infra Arcana takes place in a H.P. Lovecraft setting, complete with sanity as a major element of the game. It's challenging from the get-go, and you have plenty of melee and ranged combat mixed into your descent toward madness.
  • MageGuild uses a combination of intrinsic and extrinsic magic to give the player an enormous variety of options while playing. It gets tough fast, but once you get the hang of it you'll be able to get out of just about any situation.
  • Drakefire Chasm is a quickie, originally constructed as a 7DRL, but it's intense and keeps you on your toes. There's a leveling system based on corpse-eating, and boss-like areas every few floors. If anything, it's worth playing just to get to the ridiculously hectic final level.
  • Delver, with a first-person perspective, and Spelunky, as a platformer, aren't turn-based in the slightest, but they certainly meet my own criteria of how the genre can take root in a variety of gaming mediums. They go by quickly, but you'll probably keep wanting more if you like what they've been mixed with.
That's a good number for now, I'd say. If you're really looking to get into a major roguelike but want to keep it simple, Brogue is the best place to start. Technically you can backtrack, but it's very rarely for anything other than trying to escape enemies (if that, since some can follow!). It's pretty faithful to the original, in fact: I like to think of it as the "HD remix" with loads of extra content.
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Gamer-man

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Re: Branching Out to Other Roguelikes
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2013, 15:06 »

I'm not really asking chaosforgue fans because i want to play more chaos forge style games, but just because A:  you are easy to ask, and B:  this weeds out suggestions from players that HATE doomrl style games for whatever reason [while someone here giving suggestions may like something about doomrl that i don't care about, it more cuts down on people loving some aspect of a game that i'm bound to hate.]

So for suggestions, i'm open to anything, perhaps this could just be more a discussion of what people think of other roguelikes rather than a straight up recommendation page.  When it comes to being doomrl like, it is sorta hit and miss.  If it has aspects similar to doomrl, it may be great for a doomrl player, however it is also in danger of not being different enough, where you would play it and wonder "why don't i just play doomrl instead."

Brogue is my 2nd favourite that i've tried so far, and is definately the best at feeling like an exploration that i've tried so far (now that i think about it, good level generation algorhythms [doomrl, brogue] vs bad level generation algorhythms [hengband, any room and cooridor generation] has made or broke what little i've tried of what few games i've tried).
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ZicherCZ

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Re: Branching Out to Other Roguelikes
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2013, 01:31 »

I mean, where else could you fight a sasquatch, chop one of its arms off, pick up said arm, then beat the still-living creature to death with its own arm?
I.V.A.N. :).

And to put my two Czech hellers to the OP, I would consider trying Dungeon Crawl and TOME. Crawl is fairly fast-paced compared to other traditional RLs, the skill system is rather unique, over 20 races with various traits, 15 gods to worship, and generally I find this game fun. TOME is more story-based, completely removes consumables (potions, scrolls etc.) and the talent system is something yet to be seen anywhere else.

There's no wonder that both of those games won the Roguelike of the Year awards and are a good company for DoomRL :).
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fooziex

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Re: Branching Out to Other Roguelikes
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2013, 13:44 »

I've been playing ADOM for well over a decade and still find it fascinating. Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup I've only recently started playing, but it seems like its very well thought out and is actively developed. It also has the best tile set of any roguelike I've played (DoomRL being a close 2nd). Brogue and SIL are probably closer to DoomRL than ADOM or DCSS in terms of gameplay. Both are (fairly) recently released and have very interesting combat and stealth features that give them (to me) a more action-oriented feel.

Another very popular roguelike with tiles is ToME4. I've played it some and I can see a lot of positive characteristics in it, but I've never been able to get into it like I have with the four I listed. It has a cooldown-based skill system that makes it feel like a MMORPG to me.

Two commercial games with roguelike mechanics I'd recommend are Teleglitch and FTL. Both are quite enjoyable in different ways.
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Gamer-man

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Re: Branching Out to Other Roguelikes
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2013, 05:18 »

I might as well say what roguelikes i have tried and what i thought of them.

DoomRL:  My first and favourite roguelike (i found out about this because i thought it'd be silly if a game was both in the "doomclone" and "roguelike" genres).  The level generator is vastly superior to most other roguelikes i've tried, your deaths are almost never out of nowhere (kehehe levels can be an exception), and there is such a variety to challenge you can use.  I also like that there are unlocks, but they are light (can be achieved in under 10 games).  Advanced assemblies can be annoying (mostly just because you can't test through possible assemblies like you can with the basic assemblies).  Achievements set a nice standard for evaluating how challenging certain combinations are (Ultra Violent vs Angel of ____ on HMP).

Brogue:  This is my second favourite, i love both the graphical style and the fantastic level generator.  Although the genre is light on exploration as a theme, this game has done the best at keeping some sorta exploratory feel for the longest, before wearing down, mostly because it was well put together and because the levels change in style as you go deeper.  I've had trouble getting use to the game's mechanics, however, as i am terribly bad at brogue.

Tome4:  This is a roguelike i play a fair amount despite numberous problems with it.  What makes the game so interesting is the vast number of very well thought out and very interesting classes.   This makes learning the game just so you can learn these classes and get to try them seem worth the effort.  The removal of consumables is great for a game with regenerating health, and the lore is fairly well writen and interesting.
However, the game requires such an investment with any given character, and deaths are rarely easy to determine the cause of.  Parts of the game that are essentually vital to playing start off locked, and some classes got vastly more attention than others (either because of bugs like my favourite class, the paradox mage, or because of the creator's favoritism like archmage).  The community on the live chat that tome4 is so proud of is almost MOBA level bad.  Also, doing well requires you to know a lot of underexplained ideas, which really add up to frustration if you don't get outside help (and figuring them out is about as rewarding as learning a keybinding by trial and error).  Also, this game can't really decide whether it works like angband (lots of points into everything) or more like DoomRL/Diablo (skill trees split the class into various 'sub-classes')
All and all, great ideas, interesting game, execution needs work.

Gearhead:  I have difficulty getting this to work or knowing what to do.  Haven't taken a closer look at it.

Steamband:  I want to like this game, it is very flavorful, and the setting works well with general item based pseudomagic and miracle tonics of unknown effect.  But i don't have the patience for an Angband variant's interface.  I have gotten further here than in hengband though.

Hengband:  Like steamband except i am less intersted in it.  My friend's favourite roguelike, but i havn't gotten very far, though i havn't tried as hard as i could have.

Powder:  The style of game assumes you pick up and play with the normal character lasting 5 minutes, and a successful one lasting 15.  Apparently a lot of players like this style, i am not one of them.

RoguePlanet:  if the levels were shorter, this would be fun pick up and play maze game, but they drag on too long killing much of the appeal.

Desktop Dungeons:  I have played a lot of this, very fun roguelike if you like math (math the roguelike is an accurate description).  Gameplay revolves around figuring out what combination allows you to kill the most out of level monster possible.  The game feels in practice more like minesweeper than a roguelike.  However, i don't think i'd consider paying more than $5 for it, and they now want to charge $15 for it, so i don't care about the game anymore.

Spelunky:  This is the other game with a vaguely exploratory feel to it initially.  Fun adventure platformer, not really a roguelike outside of the randomly generated levels (and random maps don't seem special to strategy game players, as civilization, Age of Empires, and Sim City 2000 each use one).

The Binding of Issac:  Pretty fun action game, like the zelda 1 dungeons randomly generated.

Dungeons of Dreadmore:  I was really bored with this game after briefly playing it.  Also, the mouse controls being manditory was rather annoying.  I'm not willing to say it is not worth the $2 i paid for it as i will probably try it again later, but there isn't really a good hook to the game that i can see. 
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tylor

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Re: Branching Out to Other Roguelikes
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2013, 09:14 »

Spelunky is very fun, but bottomless pit part is very frustrating.

ToME4 I play now, it is great, but indeed need learning. All skills have description, but it is sometimes hard to understand it's meaning and potential. And you can get detailed info on every enemy you see, up to list of skills, which is great. But most non-obvious part is what areas to keep clear off. Like Tempest Peak (even though you are strongly nudged by game to go there), Graveyard and Dark Crypt.

Enemies are very uneven, melee are easy, but spellcasters are insanely dangerous. They dish crazy damage and stat effects, and don't die quite easily. And it is very hard to protect from caster's damage, because there is no "protection" to evade them, and there is too many elemental types to get resists for all of them.

Classess are similarly unbalanced. I die fast with melee and archers, but Summoner is very easy. (Dwarf) Wyrmic is a very powerful melee/caster class, similar to D&D Cleric.
Archmage is very damaging, but also very hard to master and to keep alive.
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bfg9001

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Re: Branching Out to Other Roguelikes
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2013, 10:07 »

I really like Caves of Qud. It's a post-apocalyptic RL with a pretty neat skill system.
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Ashannar

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Re: Branching Out to Other Roguelikes
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2013, 02:06 »

NetHack was my first roguelike. I spent years becoming good at that game. I like it, but I've forgotten enough more about that game than there is to learn about most roguelikes and I can still win.

I'm also quite fond of Crawl and ToME 4.

I can safely say none of them I like as much as DoomRL, though. Some come sort of close, but DoomRL has an indescribable charm that meshes very well with my personality.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 02:08 by Ashannar »
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Matstaal

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Re: Branching Out to Other Roguelikes
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2013, 09:42 »

Anyone ever played a little gem called Ragnarok? It's a fantasy roguelike based on Norse mythology, and incredibly random. I remember it being the first roguelike I played, though it did have basic sprites and graphics.

some gems:
-mix potions with random and unexpected results... drink them anyway
-turn into a werewolf, sit back and watch your character go berserk around the map whenever the moon comes out.
-start out as a human, but turn into weird races by eating mushrooms, drinking potions, reading scrolls, etc
-scroll of genocide. name any race and it immediatly goes extinct... not a high-level item either, you could easily find one in the first few minutes or even spawn with one as a scribe.
and yes, you can name human and kill yourself...
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LuckyDee

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Re: Branching Out to Other Roguelikes
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2013, 12:08 »

Anyone ever played a little gem called Ragnarok?

I was actually looking this up a couple of days back, since I played it about 20 years ago. Kicked ass!

(actually found some stuff about it too)

Anybody still have this?
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Evilpotatoe

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Re: Branching Out to Other Roguelikes
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2013, 16:02 »

Google and Wikipedia give this link : http://theodor.lauppert.ws/games/ragnarok.htm

Actually, I don't remember much from this game, It was cute, but looked extremely random to me.
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lmaoboat

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Re: Branching Out to Other Roguelikes
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2013, 16:07 »

Incursion is one of my favorites:
http://www.incursion-roguelike.net/
It's got some of the best varied ASCII dungeon design I've seen, tons of interesting and unique loot, and is based off D&D 3.5.
Unfortunately, it's been in development hell forever, and was recently shelved by it's developer.

SotS: The Pit is one I've been playing recently:
http://sots-thepit.com/
The RNG can be rather cruel in terms of not being able to find vital equipment, and the combat is rather slow and simple, but it's otherwise a surprisingly polished and well thought out RL. There's a huge variety of items that can be found and crafted, and a metagame involving learning crafting recipes for useful equipment or food are persistent between characters. You could just looked them up on the wiki, but this is one of the few game's I've not been felt the urge to do so.
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