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Author Topic: Balance suggestions  (Read 30649 times)

Nick

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Balance suggestions
« on: February 20, 2013, 16:25 »

I'm probably wrong but I feel
1) Gatling must require two Tech mods and a Chaingun, not two Bulk mods. Or, at least, T+B.
2) Both single and double Shotguns must have the Elephant calibre.
3) Double and Combat Shotguns must appear a bit earlier. On Normal, they are too late for the party in 95% cases.

Also, why Angel of Light Travel can't have the RL on Arena and beat The Wall to have the Backpack? Is it done on purpose or?..
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Equality

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2013, 22:32 »

1. = (no matter). B- mods and T- mods both are common.
2. Oh, eah! Double elephant shotgun! Cyberdemon size! But that can ruin balance and make shotguns incredible powerful. Recipe must be in Master category and looks like "shotgun + PPPF"
3. ? actual game looks balanced
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Nick

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2013, 23:21 »

1) Yeah, but B is required for most basic recipes, T is not that useful.
2) Sounds perfect.
3) Looks like I have to learn more shotgun tricks :(
About the level generation.
4) All rooms are accessible thru doors. So teleports don't affect the gameplay enough. Just imagine a risk of teleporting into unknown place/situation vs. trying to explode the wall vs. leaving the level without checking the place.
5) In cave levels, good weapons must tend to appear in diagonal corner areas, to make player check everything to find them. BTW, I love caves :) they forces me to be cautious and carry enough life-saving supplies.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 00:01 by Nick »
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ZicherCZ

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2013, 01:19 »

2. Oh, eah! Double elephant shotgun! Cyberdemon size! But that can ruin balance and make shotguns incredible powerful. Recipe must be in Master category and looks like "shotgun + PPPF"
Then you would nearly never actually assemble this thing, and MAD would never ever see it. I would love to see such a shotgun, but perhaps as a basic assembly with a huuuuuge reload time (normal elephant gun is at 2.5s, so here something like 4s may sound reasonable).
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Evilpotatoe

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2013, 03:33 »

Requests :
  • Gatling must require two Tech mods and a Chaingun, not two Bulk mods. Or, at least, T+B.
  • Both single and double Shotguns must have the Elephant calibre.
  • Double and Combat Shotguns must appear a bit earlier. On Normal, they are too late for the party in 95% cases.
  • All rooms are accessible thru doors. So teleports don't affect the gameplay enough. Just imagine a risk of teleporting into unknown place/situation vs. trying to explode the wall vs. leaving the level without checking the place.
  • In cave levels, good weapons must tend to appear in diagonal corner areas, to make player check everything to find them. BTW, I love caves :) they forces me to be cautious and carry enough life-saving supplies.
  • Buff pistols, nerf SoAG ! I never use pistols if I didn't go specifically for a pistols build. I tried once to use a blaster to save some ammo... didn't seem to be a good idea.   OTOH, SoAG is insanely powerful... am I the only one bothered by this imbalance ?
  • Add bullets ammo in city of skulls ! This level is already hard enough without shotguns... add some 10mm, please !
  • Rebalance angel of death. Make something to prevent killing him with a single throwing knife (and patience)... maybe drop his armor and replace it with more HP, give him hp regen, or anything funny (lost souls summons, lava trail where it walks...) but do something :'(
  • Why he hell is halls of carnage a free BFG ? I like BFG, but I never understood why one is here... in fact, I'm just realizing, writing this, that I probably never died in this level.
  • Reduce the fire resistance of lost souls ! all they need is an Arena master's staff resistance, they shouldn't resist rockets, it's not doomish at all ! Shotty will still be better, anyway.

My point of view about your ideas
  • T seem, indeed, underused. But I'm not sure Gatling is the assembly which should be tweaked. BT sounds fine, but asking twice the same might be intended to avoid assembling it too easily.
  • I love the idea, but am not sure it would be that much balanced. I dont like double shotty (except against Inferno's hydra queen), but this one seems really powerful. Maybe too much. (On the other hand, a P3 DbShotty would have 12 dices, so... WK seems to be the only real difference)
  • ? I use shotguns during 50 to 75% of the game, so they don't seem too late at all to me. Either I'm too bad with chain weapons, or it's just about playstyle.
  • Great idea. Would rather fit to the inferno mod, I think.
  • I dont think it would change much. The only thing I hate in caves is having items or stairs behind a sea of a non-blue fluid.
  • to 10. :  Greatest ideas ever !
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 13:46 by Evilpotatoe »
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tylor

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2013, 04:27 »

Storm-modded blaster with SoB5 is quite an ammo saver.
Pistols and melee are underpowered unless you train it specifically, and it actually makes sense. And similar to Doom.

Though, I'd not mind if default pistol were a little improved. Most standard weapons can be quite good when upgraded, but with pistol's crippling magazine size of 6 little can be done with it.
In RL, pistols use in police and army have at least 10 rounds, as far as I could google. 6 rounds are either WW2 era, or mini-pistols, or revolvers. But if it is a revolver, it should have better punch, no?
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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2013, 07:25 »

Double and Combat Shotguns must appear a bit earlier. On Normal, they are too late for the party in 95% cases.
Used to be the case.  Nerfed because no one used the Shotgun.

In cave levels, good weapons must tend to appear in diagonal corner areas, to make player check everything to find them. BTW, I love caves :) they forces me to be cautious and carry enough life-saving supplies.
Reduction of random element.  Not rogue-like.

Buff pistols, nerf SoAG ! I never use pistols if I didn't go specifically for a pistols build. I tried once to use a blaster to save some ammo... didn't seem to be a good idea.   OTOH, SoAG is insanely powerful... am I the only one bothered by this imbalance ?
No.  Pistols were modelled after their Doom counterparts, not CS.  If you think SoG is insanely powerful, why not suggest nerfing MAD also?  I mean, it makes shotguns ignore armour completely, which does not make sense because well, shotguns!  Right?

Add bullets ammo in city of skulls ! This level is already hard enough without shotguns... add some 10mm, please !
You can choose to enter the City of Skulls.  Heck, you can even choose if you want to fight anything in the City of Skulls.

Why he hell is halls of carnage a free BFG ? I like BFG, but I never understood why one is here... in fact, I'm just realizing, writing this, that I probably never died in this level.
Wait till 0.9.9.7 comes out before you complain any further about access to BFG...
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Nick

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2013, 10:19 »

Used to be the case. Nerfed because no one used the Shotgun.
I think elimination of the Arena Master must give the Double Shotgun as well as the Staff. At Normal, I usually drop the shotgun there because one full stack of the Chaingun ammo is better than the Shotgun or it's ammo. Unless I already have the DS, of course.

Reduction of random element.  Not rogue-like.
Not THAT much, of course! More corner areas, more good things there, less good things instantly accessible. Non-linear random element feels "more random", if it's done properly. If Minecraft terrain generator just fills the area with random 50% air and 50% solid blocks, who needs it? I probably had not speak clear enough. I've tried to speak about "good" way of correlation and dependence in semi-random functions.

Either way, I love caves. And the fact they are not balanced. Troubles must be troubles, bad luck must be bad. "Be ready for everything, carelessness can kill even a Titan" -- it's my noobish vision of the "roguelikeness", of it's main feature.

No.  Pistols were modelled after their Doom counterparts, not CS.
+1

You can choose to enter the City of Skulls.  Heck, you can even choose if you want to fight
+1.

Wait till 0.9.9.7 comes out before you complain any further about access to BFG...
For now, BFG looks like a guaranteed way to make boss levels playable, no matter how lucky the player is. Proper decisions and good knowledge about the game universe almost always lead to victory. One just have to know where to get it, how to collect enough cells and... But I don't think getting BFG must be easier than getting the Backpack. Even if it's "the guaranteed way to ma..." one have to fight for it. Glad to hear one will have to soon.
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Evilpotatoe

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2013, 14:11 »

Confirm me something please : pistols suck, right ?
When I say they should be buffed (and SoAG nerfed), it's mainly because
  • I never use them. even when I find a combat pistol at 2nd or 4th floor, unless I went for a gun mastery. The reason ? they are just too weak
  • SoAG is very efficient, but outside of a gun build... it's fully useless. While SoB or reloader, which are (initially) dedicated to rapid fire and shotguns, work on all weapons.
(I don't understand your comparison with CS... pistols suck in CS too :/  Well, deagle scores headshots, btw, but it's not as good as a real weapon... just cost effective.
Oh, and a trigun is actually way better :p)

What I'm saying is just that it's a shame that if you don't go for a pistol mastery, pistols & SoAG just won't be used... I might be wrong, of course, but do many people pick only one or two levels of SoAG ? And are guns often used outside of a pistol build ? (except for uniques, & maybe blaster).
If they are good weapons (e.g. because they have a good precision), I just have to learn using them. But I'm afraid they are just not, and that's what I'd like to see improved.


About city of skull, sure, you're not forced to go in... but is there any reason not to put bullets in ? If there is one, it's ok... but if the map designer just forgot about bullets when he filled the valuts, I'd like it to be fixed... it could replace the rockets, for example... does anyone fire them in this level ? O_o

Oh, and glad to learn that Santa will stop distributing free BFGs  btw :)
I hope it's the same for missile launcher & backpack !
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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2013, 16:59 »

Confirm me something please : pistols suck, right ?
So do Combat Knives.

I never use them. even when I find a combat pistol at 2nd or 4th floor, unless I went for a gun mastery. The reason ? they are just too weak
So do Combat Knives.

SoAG is very efficient, but outside of a gun build... it's fully useless. While SoB or reloader, which are (initially) dedicated to rapid fire and shotguns, work on all weapons.
What about Bru?  Or Ber?

What I'm saying is just that it's a shame that if you don't go for a pistol mastery, pistols & SoAG just won't be used... I might be wrong, of course, but do many people pick only one or two levels of SoAG ?
Again, Bru.  Or Bad.

If they are good weapons (e.g. because they have a good precision), I just have to learn using them. But I'm afraid they are just not, and that's what I'd like to see improved.
I see that you are going to argue that Combat Knives need a buff too then.


About city of skull, sure, you're not forced to go in... but is there any reason not to put bullets in ? If there is one, it's ok...
Design decision.  Not all special levels are supposed to be fair for all builds.  See also Unholy Cathedral.

Oh, and glad to learn that Santa will stop distributing free BFGs  btw :)
I only said to wait for 0.9.9.7.  I did not say anything else.
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tylor

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2013, 17:46 »

Masterless pistol build can be quite interesting on high enough levels. SoB5+SoAG5+DG+Rel3+TH2+EE+2 storm bolters... 240 damage in 0.2 seconds. 0.8 seconds to reload. If you have Beretta/Combat Pistol or nano mod(s) you can have quite ridiculous DPS.

Cateye mastery works well with pistols too (because it is only burst mastery that is not chainfire-specific)

Berserk is very good for everyone, because it kicks in on getting damaged too.
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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2013, 18:39 »

Berserk is very good for everyone, because it kicks in on getting damaged too.
At the cost of 2 early levels of Bru?  Not really.  Not getting hit is better than trying to proc 'zerk on damage.

2xFin or even 2xHR is a better investment for the 2 levels of Bru if you are not playing a melee character.
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skarczew

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2013, 18:59 »

Masterless pistol build can be quite interesting on high enough levels. SoB5+SoAG5+DG+Rel3+TH2+EE+2 storm bolters... 240 damage in 0.2 seconds. 0.8 seconds to reload. If you have Beretta/Combat Pistol or nano mod(s) you can have quite ridiculous DPS.
Yep.
Quote
Cateye mastery works well with pistols too (because it is only burst mastery that is not chainfire-specific)
It is one of the best masteries for Pistols :) .

Quote
Why he hell is halls of carnage a free BFG ? I like BFG, but I never understood why one is here... in fact, I'm just realizing, writing this, that I probably never died in this level.
Wait till 0.9.9.7 comes out before you complain any further about making it out alive from there
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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2013, 22:18 »

T might be underused in assemblies, but they're still the best weapon mod. A combat shotty with a single T mod can fire and pump in about the same time it takes a tactical/unmodded assault shotty to fire. Save Ps for armor if not taking WK. If any mod needs rebalancing I think it's bulk, if only to reduce its drop rate in favor of other mods. I always end up leaving a bunch on the ground. I don't like making fireproof/ballistic armor because of the maluses to melee/fire.
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Equality

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Re: Balance suggestions
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2013, 23:08 »

Quote
About city of skull, sure, you're not forced to go in... but is there any reason not to put bullets in ? If there is one, it's ok... but if the map designer just forgot about bullets when he filled the valuts, I'd like it to be fixed... it could replace the rockets, for example... does anyone fire them in this level ? O_o
of course fire! Rockets good for rocketjumping and evade surrounding. They do knockback for Souls. If not a Vampire build, and not a AoSh, rockets are very usable here. As usual - first shot is from BFG (found at Halls of Carnage), and second too. Then shotgun or double shotgun, and sometimes rocket launcher or mini-launcher (I love it!) for quick escaping. So, energy cells, rockets and shells. Clear City of Sculls with 10mm weapon (pistols/chaingun) looks dangerous.

Quote
Why he hell is halls of carnage a free BFG ? I like BFG, but I never understood why one is here... in fact, I'm just realizing, writing this, that I probably never died in this level.

For next special level - City of Sculls, of course ;) Really, without BFG we have very hard start in CoS. We need MVm build or homing phase - or can die in 4-5 turns even with double shotgun. BFG makes start in CoS relatively easy.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 23:16 by Equality »
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